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I see many old posts about this. Is it still a relevant topic?
Hard to determine what the concensus was.
TYIA.
I have heard it mentioned in class, did more research then got confused with the pros and cons. So thank you.Turned out to be 18 Lohan + Yip Man Wing Chun instead of a rare variant of Wing Chun. Some people found benefit in its methods regardless of source. After the main guy pushing it got publicly named+shamed by his old teacher and split with the VTM, nobody really has mentioned it.
Provenance. It's source, or where it comes from. Various possibilities have been suggested:Whether or not Black Flag Wing Chun was actually good training or not, I couldn't say, but the providence was misrepresented according to the global consensus.
Some people are simply drawn to the esoteric. "The less known, the better."....if you look hard enough there are still some less mainstream strains, but that doesn't always mean better.
Some people are simply drawn to the esoteric. "The less known, the better."
Personally, I agree with you. Sometimes the better known branches are well known because they were practical and functional.
Unfortunately, that quality may be diminishing over time.
Not everyone wants a mcdojo.
And the worst. Usually the worst.Sometimes the best stuff is in garages, basements, backyards etc
Can you expand on this thought?And the worst. Usually the worst.
Backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists. Typically, those are the hobbyists.Can you expand on this thought?
I can see this if they are not associated with a school and maybe just learned a little and are passing themselves off as experts. However, there are quite a few advantages for smaller schools.Backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists. Typically, those are the hobbyists.
YouTube has all the proof you need. This website has plenty of examples. Some of the worst stuff I've ever seen.
A school can operate out of a church basement, closet, attic, beach. Anywhere. So any shingle.I can see this if they are not associated with a school and maybe just learned a little and are passing themselves off as experts. However, there are quite a few advantages for smaller schools.
I guess that I just haven’t run across these guys. I have found some really good small schools though.A school can operate out of a church basement, closet, attic, beach. Anywhere. So any shingle.
The good to bad ratio still heavily favors the bad stuff.
Martial arts instruction is heavily infested by this behind the door mentality.
And most people can't tell the difference.
There will always be opinions about what is and what isn't good Wing Chun. However, the size and building type of the school/kwoon has little to do with the quality of instruction. Quality Wing Chun is the result of proper training, and that can take place in any sized outlet. I know several well-known teachers that produce high quality practitioners from their backyards and mo kwoons.The good to bad ratio still heavily favors the bad stuff.
"High quality" is subjective. Alot of people consider very bad stuff good, just because it is taught in secret in someone's special clubhouse.There will always be opinions about what is and what isn't good Wing Chun. However, the size and building type of the school/kwoon has little to do with the quality of instruction. Quality Wing Chun is the result of proper training, and that can take place in any sized outlet. I know several well-known teachers that produce high quality practitioners from their backyards and mo kwoons.
By high quality I simply mean established curriculum, tested, fight capable, verified lineage approved, etc... Gary Lam, Mark Wong, Dwight Hennings, Nino Bernardo... immediately come to mind. I was just trying to point out that your opinion that, "backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists", is an extreme generalization. In terms of traditional gong fu, it is well-known that some of the most respected VT has been taught from the mo kwoon ( home school ). Teaching from backyards, garages, and basements is actually quite common through-out all of Chinese martial arts history. Leung Jan, Yip Man, Yuen Kay San, Bruce Lee, even Wong Fei Hung. From Mantis to Hung Ga and Ving Tsun, the home school has always been deeply rooted in gong fu culture."High quality" is subjective. Alot of people consider very bad stuff good, just because it is taught in secret in someone's special clubhouse.
It's not that good teachers can't be found in the oddest places, but that there is an overwhelming abundance of charlatans, fakes, and couch potatoes who also claim to be basement masters.
These people drown out legitimate teachers, because to the average person they are indistinguishable. Wing Chun is just one art with this problem, it really applies to them all.
He said "some of the best stuff". I said "also some of the worst, usually".I was just trying to point out that your opinion that, "backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists", is an extreme generalization.
Yes, but the inverse is often true. Just because a school isn't a commercial operation does Not mean it is bad.Backyards, garages, and basements have a long history of producing terrible martial artists. Typically, those are the hobbyists.
YouTube has all the proof you need. This website has plenty of examples. Some of the worst stuff I've ever seen.