Advantage Martial Arts Has Over Guns

[drop bear]

@gyoja How far back does the infantry’s and SOCOM’s store of generational fighting knowledge go? WWII?

The gun community has its own correcting mechanism, like with MMA. The difference is, people die when it happens.

Miami Dade Shootout

UT Sniper 1966

North Hollywood Shooting

People die anyway. Untrained People defend themselves with guns. Trained people die in gunfights.

In war. I imagine you times that randomness by a thousand.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

 

[GreenieMeanie]

People die anyway. Untrained People defend themselves with guns. Trained people die in gunfights.

In war. I imagine you times that randomness by a thousand.

Every time a foreign rag-tag paramilitary group has tested this theory against seasoned and equipped western adversaries, or “touched the boats,” they have either gone extinct, or landed on the list of endangered species.

Untrained people die from stupidity. Trained people die from bad luck, or arrogance.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not to take away from your point…but which kind of taser are we talking here?

Police style with dart cables.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Which is why if you do MMA you need to be good to be successful at it. And if you use a tazer or a gun. You don't.

A 75 year old woman can be effective.

And the training reflects that.

The difference is I can tell if someone is good at MMA. And have to guess if someone is good with a tazer or a gun.(unless they are a competitive shooter. And there is some sort of objective measurement)

So, what you are basically saying MMA is hard so we should do Gun Fu because it requires little training or skill, is the most effective martial art, and even a granny can do it. Great! Full circle! Just like any good MT conversation.

 

[drop bear]

So, what you are basically saying MMA is hard so we should do Gun Fu because it requires little training or skill, is the most effective martial art, and even a granny can do it. Great! Full circle! Just like any good MT conversation.

No. That is what you are saying. I am just agreeing with you.

 

[drop bear]

Every time a foreign rag-tag paramilitary group has tested this theory against seasoned and equipped western adversaries, or “touched the boats,” they have either gone extinct, or landed on the list of endangered species.

Untrained people die from stupidity. Trained people die from bad luck, or arrogance.

What war did we win?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

What war did we win?

They’ve pretty much wiped out every insurgent group they set their focus on, from French Foreign Legion versus African rebels, to the US military versus ISIS.

 

[gyoja]

They’ve pretty much wiped out every insurgent group they set their focus on, from French Foreign Legion versus African rebels, to the US military versus ISIS.

I think that he has a mouse in his pocket…

 

[drop bear]

They’ve pretty much wiped out every insurgent group they set their focus on, from French Foreign Legion versus African rebels, to the US military versus ISIS.

So not Korea.
Not Vietnam.
Mabye quate. However that is spelled.
Not Afghanistan.

I could google the rest. But I mean that is hardly a clean sweep.

Here we go. Just to save me doing a whole bunch of real research.


America fought five major wars after 1945 including Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan in addition to some minor wars in Somalia, Yemen, and Libya. Except for the Gulf War in 1991, America lost all other wars.

 

[gyoja]

So not Korea.
Not Vietnam.
Mabye quate. However that is spelled.
Not Afghanistan.

I could google the rest. But I mean that is hardly a clean sweep.

Here we go. Just to save me doing a whole bunch of real research.


America fought five major wars after 1945 including Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan in addition to some minor wars in Somalia, Yemen, and Libya. Except for the Gulf War in 1991, America lost all other wars.

Drowning in it again!

 

[GreenieMeanie]

So not Korea.
Not Vietnam.
Mabye quate. However that is spelled.
Not Afghanistan.

I could google the rest. But I mean that is hardly a clean sweep.

Here we go. Just to save me doing a whole bunch of real research.


America fought five major wars after 1945 including Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan in addition to some minor wars in Somalia, Yemen, and Libya. Except for the Gulf War in 1991, America lost all other wars.

Depends on your criteria for “winning,” Von Clauswitz or otherwise. Generally speaking, resorting to hiding in tunnels, caves, and never leaving a safe house in Pakistan, to survive, is not a winning behavior.

There’s an English woman in…Somalia?..wanted for bombings. They known exactly where she is, they’re just reluctant to expend the energy to grab her. So they’re waiting her out, while she lives a miserable life in hiding.

Targeted dudes **** their pants and pray when they realize they accidentally turned on a phone, that the NSA has been looking for. Because that usually means it’s just a matter of hours before a team gets spun up to disappear him, or just delete his house.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Nope, no problem reconciling them at all. PhotonGuy is the type of person that keeps a lot of those places in business... They drop a lot of money, again and again... but have no actual practical experience. And they don't balance the laboratory of the training with real world experience.

If you're talking about the shooting schools I've been to, some of them have been run and instructed exclusively by combat veterans and the instructors have seen action.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think the issue is expectation management. People assume that a .30 caliber round will reduce the threat immediately, while something like 9mm will not. LEOs involved in use of force and medical professionals that have experience dealing with GSW will tell you that humans are complex. There are no guarantees. Again, shot placement and bullet type are the most important factors.

Yes you are right about shot placement. It's more important where you hit somebody, as opposed to how powerful your gun is, You can shoot a large man in the arm with a .357 Magnum and he might still be coming at you but if you shoot anybody in the ocular cavity with a .22 pistol and have the bullet go into their brain I guarantee it will stop them.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Somebody with more experience than me said “ handguns make holes in people, rifles make holes through people, shotguns, with the right distance and ammo take chunks off people”.

That is true at the most basic level. As it's been pointed out here much of it depends on factors such as shot placement, and as you mention later in the post, distance and ammo type and the type of clothing worn by the target, for instance if they're wearing body armor, as well as other stuff. As for barrel length, a longer barrel means the bullet is going to accelerate longer and therefore have a higher muzzle velocity which will means it will have more energy and rifles and shotguns naturally do have longer barrels than handguns.

That’s a similar simplification to what photon said. It contains some truth, but could also be completely false depending on circumstances such as ammunitio, distance to target, shot placement, barrel length, clothing worn by the target, and a host of other details. I haven’t shot any people, but i have treated a significant number of various types of gunshot wounds in the operating room. I have seen what happens on the outside as well as the inside. I have seen people die in front of me from gunshot wounds on several occasions.

So in the cases of people dying in front of you from gunshot wounds what kind of guns were they shot with and where were they shot? If it's a headshot that will often outright kill somebody regardless if its from a rifle, a shotgun, or a handgun.

I hunted with my grandfather extensively as a kid. I’ve been a shooter for over 4 decades. I’m no gunfighter, but neither am I inexperienced.

Hunting and target shooting is one thing, tactical shooting is something else. You say you've shot for over 4 decades but what kind of shooting have you done? Stuff such as 3-gun shooting doesn't teach you how to engage with targets that are shooting back at you.

Also when you claim to not be a gunfighter, exactly what do you define as a "gunfighter"? Somebody who knows how to fight with a gun? Somebody who's been in real gunfights? ect.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Same reason to carry JHP in your carry pistol

That's not always legal depending on what state you're in, and it can get you in more trouble in court should you ever use your gun in a fight.

 

[gyoja]

That's not always legal depending on what state you're in, and it can get you in more trouble in court should you ever use your gun in a fight.

If I’m not mistaken, that is the case only in New Jersey.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If I’m not mistaken, that is the case only in New Jersey.

Definitely in New Jersey, possibly in other liberal states too such as Illinois and New York and California.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That is true at the most basic level. As it's been pointed out here much of it depends on factors such as shot placement, and as you mention later in the post, distance and ammo type and the type of clothing worn by the target, for instance if they're wearing body armor, as well as other stuff. As for barrel length, a longer barrel means the bullet is going to accelerate longer and therefore have a higher muzzle velocity which will means it will have more energy and rifles and shotguns naturally do have longer barrels than handguns.

So in the cases of people dying in front of you from gunshot wounds what kind of guns were they shot with and where were they shot? If it's a headshot that will often outright kill somebody regardless if its from a rifle, a shotgun, or a handgun.

Hunting and target shooting is one thing, tactical shooting is something else. You say you've shot for over 4 decades but what kind of shooting have you done? Stuff such as 3-gun shooting doesn't teach you how to engage with targets that are shooting back at you.

Also when you claim to not be a gunfighter, exactly what do you define as a "gunfighter"? Somebody who knows how to fight with a gun? Somebody who's been in real gunfights? ect.

I’ve seen a lot gunshot wounds, animals and people. First time on a person was a 1911 point blank to the head, in person, in the street, while walking with my grandfather at age 5. I’m certain he died. There have been many non fatal gunshot wounds in the OR over the years, mostly pistol caliber wounds to extremities. Some of those, while not fatal, were nonetheless catastrophic. Three were accidentally self inflicted by police officers. One was two 45 acp to the thorax, and two to the abdomen. In this case the victim had been home invaded by robbers who ordered the victim to bind his wife, he chose to fight and was shot point blank. He managed to get a cell phone and a Hank of hair from the perpetrators. The wife got away, the victim was alert and responsive all the way to the OR until we induced anesthesia and began working to save him. We had two teams and were giving a lot of blood but in the end he succumbed to his injuries. I had one patient that was shot through and through to the thorax 3 times with an AR 15 who was surprisingly doing quite well with a chest seal that was applied by a bystander. That patient survived with few complications. I had one with a 9mm in the distal talus that mentioned a hurting foot but didn’t realize he had been shot at all… the bullet was badly deformed and the entry wound had nearly healed by the time the patient decided to go to the Dr.


As far as shooting goes, I got my first handgun at 6. A colt frontier scout .22 lr or wmr. Hunting deer, bird, pigs, bear for our table. Moved from southern coastal Oregon to the streets of South L.A. At age 10. Saw lots of violence and shooting there. Saw people get shot and run distances just like deer or pigs can do. Got into tactical train8ng in the 1990s after being in the 1992 LA riots. Moved to rural Northern California in 1995. Started my Gung fu training and got fully into fitness and shooting around then. Started taking shooting courses of all sorts through the local gun club. Have done every kind of training available but found my love in long distance shooting.

So, to me,a gunfighter is somebody who has or does get into gunfights. I have had guns pulled on me and been shot at, but never have I fired a gun at a person. So I am not a gunfighter. I have been in plenty of fights but I don’t consider myself a fighter. I drive a car fast sometimes but I’m not a race car driver. I love watching wildlife, but I’m not a biologist. I’ve trained my dog, but I’m not a dog trainer. I can maintenance my vehicle but I’m no mechanic. I have assisted in thousands of surgeries but I’m not a surgeon. I think you get where I’m coming from on this.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I’ve seen a lot gunshot wounds, animals and people. First time on a person was a 1911 point blank to the head, in person, in the street, while walking with my grandfather at age 5. I’m certain he died. There have been many non fatal gunshot wounds in the OR over the years, mostly pistol caliber wounds to extremities. Some of those, while not fatal, were nonetheless catastrophic. Three were accidentally self inflicted by police officers. One was two 45 acp to the thorax, and two to the abdomen. In this case the victim had been home invaded by robbers who ordered the victim to bind his wife, he chose to fight and was shot point blank. He managed to get a cell phone and a Hank of hair from the perpetrators. The wife got away, the victim was alert and responsive all the way to the OR until we induced anesthesia and began working to save him. We had two teams and were giving a lot of blood but in the end he succumbed to his injuries.

So it sounds like he bled out. When people do die from handgun shots it's usually either a head shot that penetrates the brain, or it's because the person bleeds out.

I had one patient that was shot through and through to the thorax 3 times with an AR 15 who was surprisingly doing quite well with a chest seal that was applied by a bystander. That patient survived with few complications.

That's possible, although he was very lucky. A rifle round such as that of an AR 15 is much more likely to kill than a handgun round.

I had one with a 9mm in the distal talus that mentioned a hurting foot but didn’t realize he had been shot at all… the bullet was badly deformed and the entry wound had nearly healed by the time the patient decided to go to the Dr.

Sounds sort of like the case of the woman who shot herself in the foot with a handgun and was back the next day to finish the class, that I've mentioned before in this thread, although he didn't even know he was shot until he went to the doctor, which just goes to show that handguns have far less ballistic power than rifles and shotguns.

As far as shooting goes, I got my first handgun at 6. A colt frontier scout .22 lr or wmr. Hunting deer, bird, pigs, bear for our table. Moved from southern coastal Oregon to the streets of South L.A. At age 10. Saw lots of violence and shooting there. Saw people get shot and run distances just like deer or pigs can do. Got into tactical train8ng in the 1990s after being in the 1992 LA riots. Moved to rural Northern California in 1995. Started my Gung fu training and got fully into fitness and shooting around then. Started taking shooting courses of all sorts through the local gun club. Have done every kind of training available but found my love in long distance shooting.

Alright so you do have experience with tactical shooting, so you would know it's different than competition target shooting or hunting.

So, to me,a gunfighter is somebody who has or does get into gunfights.

That would mean many if not most police officers and military personnel would not meet your definition of a gunfighter.

I have had guns pulled on me and been shot at, but never have I fired a gun at a person. So I am not a gunfighter. I have been in plenty of fights but I don’t consider myself a fighter. I drive a car fast sometimes but I’m not a race car driver. I love watching wildlife, but I’m not a biologist. I’ve trained my dog, but I’m not a dog trainer. I can maintenance my vehicle but I’m no mechanic. I have assisted in thousands of surgeries but I’m not a surgeon. I think you get where I’m coming from on this.

Yes, it's all a matter of definition and point of view.