Zacarias Moussaoui and Capitol Punishment

[michaeledward]

On August 16, 2001, Zacarias Moussaoui was arrested.

On September 11, 2001 Zacarias Moussaoui was in a jail cell.

Recently, a jury in a Federal Court has authorized the possibility of the State executing a Death Penalty sentence on Mr. Moussaoui for actions that he did not participate in.

Apparently, the theory is, because Mr. Moussaoui was uncooperative between August 16 and September 11, government officials, in the FBI, FAA, CIA and other agencies, could not take action based on Mr. Moussaoui's knowledge of the upcoming attacks.

I am deeply troubled by what I am hearing about this trial. The State may soon be on a path of executing a man for something he didn't do, something he couldn't do; because he was in the State's custody at the time of the crime.

For this theory to have been successful, it speculates that every government agency acted with competence and in a timely manner with the information Mr. Moussaoui might have provided. That assumption seems contradictory to all the observable evidence on government actions, especially in our government, with its built-in in-efficiencies.

Further, I would speculate that the United States government carrying out an execution would bestow a martyrdom stature on Mr. Moussaoui in some circles; elevating his name to the same stature as the name 'bin Laden', 'Zawahiri', and 'al-Zarqari'.

Is this trial taking place below the American Publics radar?
What are your thoughts on the possibility of Moussaoui's trial?

 

[Don Roley]

I think we can't fry this SOB fast enough.

After 19 dead hijackers, I can't see people rallying around yet another dead scumbag. All the glory goes to Bin Laden, not his underlings.

I can't see a major increase in the amount of westerners killed because he was done extra- crispy. At most, I see an increase in people using the excuse of his execution to justify their beheading people they kidnap. If they do not have Moussaoui, they will just use another excuse.

And if you look at martyrs through history, the ones that cause a lot of people to join a cause are those that try non-violent means to change things, only to be killed. Those that are determined to fight another rally around dead heros that use violence, but it takes an innocent who will not use violence and is killed to really inflame the world. Look at the end result of the politician getting killed in Lebonan by Syria for the most recent example.

I fear more the amount of people that will be killed supposably to get him released. One thing that the folks chopping off heads in Iraq seem to love is to kidnap people, make impossible demands and then get the kidnap victim to plead for their life in a hopeless cause before murdering them and saying, "look what the west forced us to do."

And as for the idea that he did not do anything- PFFFFFTTT!!!! He was an active planner and participant in the plot. To think that his confession could not have helped at all flies in the face of how well the pre-911 FBI rolled up a few plots like the millenium bombing plan. With some names and details, things would have at least had a chance.

This guy was not like the neighbors who suspect something is going on but never calls it in. This guy helped set the plan in motion and is fully as guilty as those that carried it out.

Let me illustrate this with an actual example. A few years ago a child molester was arrested in Belgium as part of a sting operation. It was found that years earlier he has kidnapped two little girls and put them in a dungeon he had built. But then he was arrested. He said nothing and did his time. During that time, the two little girls died a slow, lingering death of starvation.

Now this guy put into motion a plot, just like Moussaoui. He was arrested, again- just like Moussaoui. He made a conscious choice to do nothing knowing that there would be inoccents killed just like Moussaoui.

Can anyone tell me how the principles are different is such way that we should not fry Moussaoui for thousands of deaths and still charge this child molester with murder?

 

[beau_safken]

Sorry but I'm going with due process on this one. IF the man can't be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt..he should be let go with full pardon and apology. Somehow I have a good feeling this guy is just a scapegoat for all the things that the administration messed up on. Again I don't have to go on about the validity of the 9/11 attacks and the numberous pieces of evidence about how it wasn't a simple "terrorist" attack.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

let me get this straight...

he's going to be executed for not doing something?

that's total bs. there are a few precedents in law that lead to punishment for not doing something, but i don't believe any of them carry the death penalty.

this feels like another example of us going crazy over 9/11. 9/11 was horrible, but the real horror to my mind is how close it's coming to changing our national personality. since when are americans supposed to put up with denial of due process, random i.d. checks and the patriot act?

this stuff makes me really, really nervous.

 

[beau_safken]

I really dont like the idea that my political party(GOP) forgot the fact that we were founded on the principle of LESS government... I wont go into that as this thread is about that guy.

I'm gonna stick with the scapegoat idea. I think they just need someone to hang to justify all the crackdowns on our personal freedoms because of how "safe" we are now.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are too many shades of MKUltra in this for me to really take this seriously.

Moussaoui, real or imagined, is a patsy and I have no doubt he will fry. Some of you may argue that justice will have been served because he did not warn us the impending attack, but all I have to say to that is that if THAT is justice, then what does that say about the 8/6/01 Daily Brief that warned of the very same material that Moussaoui would have spilt?

It is hard to even imagine the amount of incompetence in our government that all of this implies...

 

[qizmoduis]

He should not be executed. That's what he wants, after all. His purpose is to manufacture a martyr out of himself. The best result would be for him to be convicted, locked away, and forgotten. Let him languish in some dusty, dank hole for the rest of his miserable, idiotic life, an inspiration to no one.

He wants us to kill him. He wants to be made into a martyred hero to be used as a rallying flag. He wants to be sent to his misogynist afterlife where he is king and is served (and serviced) every day by gaggles of doe-eyed, nubile virgin girls in perpetuity as a reward for his "sacrifice".

Why should we give him what he wants?

 

[Makalakumu]

He should not be executed. That's what he wants, after all. His purpose is to manufacture a martyr out of himself. The best result would be for him to be convicted, locked away, and forgotten. Let him languish in some dusty, dank hole for the rest of his miserable, idiotic life, an inspiration to no one.

He wants us to kill him. He wants to be made into a martyred hero to be used as a rallying flag. He wants to be sent to his misogynist afterlife where he is king and is served (and serviced) every day by gaggles of doe-eyed, nubile virgin girls in perpetuity as a reward for his "sacrifice".

Why should we give him what he wants?

Exactly. Send him to Bubba instead.

Seriously, though, a life prison sentence is still a death sentance. I don't see the other inmates letting a guy like this live very long.

 

[Monadnock]

Well, it is still a death sentence if we know that the prisons are so out of control that someone's going to shank him anyways.

It's still curious to see just who would be running to his defense though...

 

[michaeledward]

let me get this straight...
he's going to be executed for not doing something?

And he was in the custody of the United States Government, sitting in a jail cell when, what he did not do, was done.

It's still curious to see just who would be running to his defense though...

Why is it curious?

And, that reads like an ad-hominem attack ... if I am mis-understanding you, please clarify.

Mr. Moussaoui was being detained on immigration charges. I am curious if 'immigration charges' normally face a penalty of 'life imprisonment or death penalty'?

 

[Don Roley]

let me get this straight...

he's going to be executed for not doing something?

He was part of the plot to kill thousands of people. Conspiracy is still a crime, even if you are not there when the actual crime is commited. There is no reasonable doubt on that point- he brags about the matter.

And I see that no one seems to want to touch my example of the guy in Belgium. Interesting.............

 

[Makalakumu]

And he was in the custody of the United States Government, sitting in a jail cell when, what he did not do, was done.

Mr. Moussaoui was being detained on immigration charges. I am curious if 'immigration charges' normally face a penalty of 'life imprisonment or death penalty'?

Michael, nothing in this rabbit hole makes sense. Moussaoui is an excuse to drag out all of the horrid details. Soon, we will see the release of the cell phone calls, the cockpit record, and other "classified" testimony and "we" will suddenly all be afraid again. When he is killed, it will feel like justice and "everyone" will feel good and will be ready to fight some more for the military industrial congressional complex. Perhaps, this rabbit hole makes more sense when viewed as a political execution.

 

[Makalakumu]

He was part of the plot to kill thousands of people. Conspiracy is still a crime, even if you are not there when the actual crime is commited. There is no reasonable doubt on that point- he brags about the matter.

First of all, in the US, has anyone ever been put to death for conspiracy?

Secondly, is there any hard evidence that shows that he would have been part of the plot?

All I've seen is heresay...and his own psychotic ramblings. In fact, I believe that various top men in Al-qaeda have testified that Moussaoui was to crazy and too inept to take part in the attack.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think we can't fry this SOB fast enough.

After 19 dead hijackers, I can't see people rallying around yet another dead scumbag. All the glory goes to Bin Laden, not his underlings.

I can't see a major increase in the amount of westerners killed because he was done extra- crispy. At most, I see an increase in people using the excuse of his execution to justify their beheading people they kidnap. If they do not have Moussaoui, they will just use another excuse.

And if you look at martyrs through history, the ones that cause a lot of people to join a cause are those that try non-violent means to change things, only to be killed. Those that are determined to fight another rally around dead heros that use violence, but it takes an innocent who will not use violence and is killed to really inflame the world. Look at the end result of the politician getting killed in Lebonan by Syria for the most recent example.

A quick look at the various people who have been sainted and martyred in the western world and an even quicker look at "martyrs" in the muslim world quickly shows that the boldfaced is incorrect. Do you ever wonder how all of those shi'ite shrines were consecrated and for who they were consecrated? Nearly all of them were violent people who died a violent death. Why would Moussaoui be any different?

I fear more the amount of people that will be killed supposably to get him released. One thing that the folks chopping off heads in Iraq seem to love is to kidnap people, make impossible demands and then get the kidnap victim to plead for their life in a hopeless cause before murdering them and saying, "look what the west forced us to do."

"Look what Saddam forced us to do..."

And as for the idea that he did not do anything- PFFFFFTTT!!!! He was an active planner and participant in the plot. To think that his confession could not have helped at all flies in the face of how well the pre-911 FBI rolled up a few plots like the millenium bombing plan. With some names and details, things would have at least had a chance.

The FBI and the CIA had plenty of information...everything they needed. They knew everything about the hijackers, their whereabouts, and the fact that they were training at flight schools and in MA. The biggest thing that prevented any of this information from making a difference was the top down pressure to bury it. Everything about Moussaoui was buried too. You should read what the person who investigated and arrested Moussaoui has to say about that...

At the very least, this is criminal negligence.

This guy was not like the neighbors who suspect something is going on but never calls it in. This guy helped set the plan in motion and is fully as guilty as those that carried it out.

It has been shown that Moussaoui knew few of the actual details of the plan. He was an outsider.

Let me illustrate this with an actual example. A few years ago a child molester was arrested in Belgium as part of a sting operation. It was found that years earlier he has kidnapped two little girls and put them in a dungeon he had built. But then he was arrested. He said nothing and did his time. During that time, the two little girls died a slow, lingering death of starvation.

Now this guy put into motion a plot, just like Moussaoui. He was arrested, again- just like Moussaoui. He made a conscious choice to do nothing knowing that there would be inoccents killed just like Moussaoui.

Can anyone tell me how the principles are different is such way that we should not fry Moussaoui for thousands of deaths and still charge this child molester with murder?

Yes, Moussaoui knew something was going on, but he didn't know exactly who, what, where, or when...and this is less then what anyone with half a brain in the FBI knew at the time. Your Belgian man example would be more appropriate if it somehow showed that the government knew where his dungeon was, who was in it, and exactly how much time it would take for them to die and still did nothing to prevent their deaths by starvation.

 

[Don Roley]

The FBI and the CIA had plenty of information...everything they needed. They knew everything about the hijackers, their whereabouts, and the fact that they were training at flight schools and in MA. The biggest thing that prevented any of this information from making a difference was the top down pressure to bury it. Everything about Moussaoui was buried too.

If you honestly believe this type of conspiracy theory type of thing, I don't see how we can have a logical debate.

 

[Makalakumu]

If you honestly believe this type of conspiracy theory type of thing, I don't see how we can have a logical debate.

Moussaoui's defense team presented all of this information. I doubt you've take the time to even take a look at it. Take a look at Able Danger, Kathleen Rowley's writings (she was the one who investigated and arrested Moussaoui), take a look at what was in the president's daily brief on the matter, hell - take a look at the defense transcripts...there is so much stuff about this that willful ignorance is the only excuse for not knowing anything.

Any reasonable person can see that the FBI knew everything it needed to know and did worse then nothing. They deliberately ignored people like Kathleen Rowley and others who were actively investigating this matter and literally shouting up at there superiors to listen. They buried them in paperwork, reassigned them, threatened to fire them, forced them to quit, etc...

The fact that you would call all of this a "conspiracy theory" speaks volumes.

The prosecutions rationale for putting Moussaoui to death is purely emotional. Just take a look at their testimonials. They are all victims' families and/or transcripts of the attack themselves. They have absolutely nothing to say in defense of the FBI or other federal agencies who had everything they needed to stop this attack and DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Worse then nothing.

 

[Don Roley]

They have absolutely nothing to say in defense of the FBI or other federal agencies who had everything they needed to stop this attack and DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

I happen to know a bit about this case, and I understand why he was convicted under the standard of beyond reasonable doubt. Do you think the goverment could have stopped this attack because they were the ones behind it? It was not too long ago that you were claiming that shaped charges and not airplanes that brought down the twin towers.

Honestly, all the folks that scream about how profiling people in airports is morally wrong and yet think that the pre 911 FBI should have followed up on a case of a muslim who was in flight school but did not want to learn how to land planes is just really strange.

Are you defending Moussaoui because you want to attack the goverment? It looks like that is your message based on the above.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Any reasonable person can see that the FBI knew everything it needed to know and did worse then nothing. They deliberately ignored people like Kathleen Rowley and others who were actively investigating this matter and literally shouting up at there superiors to listen. They buried them in paperwork, reassigned them, threatened to fire them, forced them to quit, etc...

The prosecutions rationale for putting Moussaoui to death is purely emotional. Just take a look at their testimonials. They are all victims' families and/or transcripts of the attack themselves. They have absolutely nothing to say in defense of the FBI or other federal agencies who had everything they needed to stop this attack and DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Worse then nothing.

While I am the first to admit that criminal screwups were made that hindered the pre-9/11 investigations that may have prevented the attacks, I also realize that the terrorists only had to get lucky once to succeed. They launched attack after attack upon America. MOST were thwarted. This one, tragically, was not. Given the political environment and lack of political will pre-9/11 to go after the terrorists at the source (Taliban Afghanistan), it was like standing still trying to block and dodge punches from a determined attacker - no matter how good you are, without the allowance to go after the aggressor with counterstrikes, the attacker WILL eventually get something through.

Moussaoui may have been an incompetent hack, but he COULD have stopped an attack that killed three thousand of our countryman and the very fact that he had foreknowledge of the attack and did nothing, is death penalty material in and of itself, IMO. Intelligence failures on our part are irrelevant.

I had an E-friend on an artist's forum who was a Navy artist stationed at the Pentagon who wrote me to thank me on 9/10 for some tips I gave him. On 9/11 I logged on to find that he was missing from the attack on the Pentagon and presumed dead. I have no sympathy for anybody who knew of or planned these atrocities.

 

[Monadnock]

And he was in the custody of the United States Government, sitting in a jail cell when, what he did not do, was done.



Why is it curious?

And, that reads like an ad-hominem attack ... if I am mis-understanding you, please clarify.

Mr. Moussaoui was being detained on immigration charges. I am curious if 'immigration charges' normally face a penalty of 'life imprisonment or death penalty'?

He pleaded guilty to terror charges that's why he faces the death penalty. Ad-hominum? I thought that only applied in a debate or arguement. It was just an observation, as I suspect there will be more terrorist supporters coming out of the woodwork as we get closer to the decision.

 

[Makalakumu]

I happen to know a bit about this case, and I understand why he was convicted under the standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

Yes, he plead guilty.

Do you think the goverment could have stopped this attack because they were the ones behind it? It was not too long ago that you were claiming that shaped charges and not airplanes that brought down the twin towers.

At the very least, our federal agencies screwed up on a scale that is absolutely unbelievable. Kathleen Rowley's information alone could have stopped these attacks. Upwards of 90 e-mails, phone calls, meetings, etc had absolutely no effect. The 9/11 commission report addresses the beauraucracy of intelligence, yet hardly addresses all of the real work that was going on "on the ground" by the various people involved. Hell, it completely leaves out anything about Able Danger. One comes to the point where one must suspend disbelief in order to acknowledge this as a the typical government SNAFU. People were kicking and screaming trying to set the ball in motion and nothing happened.

Honestly, all the folks that scream about how profiling people in airports is morally wrong and yet think that the pre 911 FBI should have followed up on a case of a muslim who was in flight school but did not want to learn how to land planes is just really strange.

Here is the thing, Don. The FBI did follow up on it. The FBI followed the leads to the attackers themselves, knew their exact location around the country. Agents on the ground knew that there would be an attack and were trying to get these people picked up. Racial profiling wouldn't have done a thing in this case, because everything was already known.

Are you defending Moussaoui because you want to attack the goverment?

Yes and no. Somebody should attack the government on all of this. As far as Moussaoui is concerned, when all of this is taken into account, it really seems hypocritical to put him to death. I understand the emotional appeal it will have, but let me ask you this. Even assuming that this is just a giant screw up, wouldn't the Agency high ups that blocked everything about this investigation be very much like your man in Belgium? There were people that were receiving information from multiple agents and knew what was happening...and still did nothing.