Your view on what ive said.

[axal_the_wise]

After over dozens of places ive searched in my area, ive only found one of where i can find it. which is 2 hours away but i dont care. its tkd and they have classes almost all week, not every day but almost all week but heres the thing. Im wanting to learn everything about it and it may be a life long

journey. Im always reading and hearing about martial arts being called self defense. Well, what if you feel you can do more than just self defense, but in a very good way, a way thats not illegal or against the teachings of martial arts, not saying "ooo i wanna pick a fight " but to protect others, for example if someone threatens someone in my family and i want to tell the guy if he doesnt back off hes just gonna get put in

the dirt. it seems that some that ive talked to say "No you dont say anything, you avoid the situation if you can, if you cant, do self defense. Maybe the person being offensive needs to be shown and taught a lesson instead of fighting when attacked, how about attack before attacked? like i said im not saying "oooo i want to pick a fight", but anyway here ill take it to more detail and maybe someone can tell me their view.

1. Guy walks up to my brother and threatens my brother
2. guy shoves my brother but my brother doesnt do anything
3. guy just doesnt leave
4. I step in and tell the guy if he doesnt stop or leave hes gonna get a beating (i dont see nothing wrong with doing that) although many people say it is wrong.
5. He doesnt back off and doesnt leave
6. Me and my brother try to walk away
7. but he just keeps it up and doesnt stop
8. I throw the first attack ,enough to make him to wanna stop, but to many instructers or people its wrong to throw the first punch,when you know you have lethal abilities.

But yea ive not started in martial arts yet, so my belief may change =)

 

[exile]

8. I throw the first attack ,enough to make him to wanna stop, but to many instructers or people its wrong to throw the first punch,when you know you have lethal abilities.

But yea ive not started in martial arts yet, so my belief may change =)

Hey axal---you're asking if it's OK to throw the first punch, according to some general notion of ethical behavior in the MAs. A lot of people, including the guy who first said in writing `There is no first attack in karate', thought it was OK, even necessary to throw the first punch---IF you were getting clear signals that someone was about to attack you physically and violently, without provocation. Funikoshi, the founder of Shotokan karate, made it clear in his writings that you were not supposed to passively await a punch in the face or a head butt or whatever, and only attack after you'd received potentially severe damage from an assailant...

BUT. If the `assailant' seems really bent on verbally harrassing you rather than physically attacking you, then it's a different story. If he's just being a jerk, but not a real threat, then a physical attack on him is just that---an attack, not a pre-emptive counterattack, the way it would be if his manner and actions made it clear he was on the verge of trying to punch or kick your lights out. If you attack him first, no matter how verbally abusive he's being, then you are in serious legal trouble, for one thing. And you have to live with the fact that your actions against him might result in permanent damage, for no better reason than that he was being... well, rude, stupid, whatever you want to call it.

So it's a judgment call, but you need to be clear with yourself on it---if you think you're just a few seconds away from getting attacked by someone for no better reason than their unreasoning aggression, people like the founders of moder karate would say to you, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six... but if there really was no physical threat to you and you attack, then the legal (and in my view, moral) burden falls on you for the consequences of the violence. It's a hard one, but an honest assessment of the situation at the time is your best guarantee that you're doing no more than necessary for your survival.

 

[MJS]

After over dozens of places ive searched in my area, ive only found one of where i can find it. which is 2 hours away but i dont care. its tkd and they have classes almost all week, not every day but almost all week but heres the thing. Im wanting to learn everything about it and it may be a life long

journey. Im always reading and hearing about martial arts being called self defense. Well, what if you feel you can do more than just self defense, but in a very good way, a way thats not illegal or against the teachings of martial arts, not saying "ooo i wanna pick a fight " but to protect others, for example if someone threatens someone in my family and i want to tell the guy if he doesnt back off hes just gonna get put in

the dirt. it seems that some that ive talked to say "No you dont say anything, you avoid the situation if you can, if you cant, do self defense. Maybe the person being offensive needs to be shown and taught a lesson instead of fighting when attacked, how about attack before attacked? like i said im not saying "oooo i want to pick a fight", but anyway here ill take it to more detail and maybe someone can tell me their view.

1. Guy walks up to my brother and threatens my brother
2. guy shoves my brother but my brother doesnt do anything
3. guy just doesnt leave
4. I step in and tell the guy if he doesnt stop or leave hes gonna get a beating (i dont see nothing wrong with doing that) although many people say it is wrong.
5. He doesnt back off and doesnt leave
6. Me and my brother try to walk away
7. but he just keeps it up and doesnt stop
8. I throw the first attack ,enough to make him to wanna stop, but to many instructers or people its wrong to throw the first punch,when you know you have lethal abilities.

But yea ive not started in martial arts yet, so my belief may change =)

If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like you're asking about a pre-emptive strike, ie: something that you are going to throw first. If thats the case, I personally see nothing wrong with that. Of course, you always want to do your best to talk your way out, but if thats not an option, then you have no choice but to defend yourself.

As far as the pre emptive strike goes, this is something that you throw as the other person is getting ready to striek. For example...you see them getting ready to punch you and you begin your offensive movement. I don't suggest doing that unless you're 100% sure that they're going to do something, otherwise you could be viewed as the aggressor. Once the person is no longer viewed as a threat, you should stop. In other words, if you punch the person and he falls to the ground, don't walk over and start kicking him.

Mike

 

[axal_the_wise]

you make alot of sense, thanks mate =D

 

[axal_the_wise]

Hey axal---you're asking if it's OK to throw the first punch, according to some general notion of ethical behavior in the MAs. A lot of people, including the guy who first said in writing `There is no first attack in karate', thought it was OK, even necessary to throw the first punch---IF you were getting clear signals that someone was about to attack you physically and violently, without provocation. Funikoshi, the founder of Shotokan karate, made it clear in his writings that you were not supposed to passively await a punch in the face or a head butt or whatever, and only attack after you'd received potentially severe damage from an assailant...

BUT. If the `assailant' seems really bent on verbally harrassing you rather than physically attacking you, then it's a different story. If he's just being a jerk, but not a real threat, then a physical attack on him is just that---an attack, not a pre-emptive counterattack, the way it would be if his manner and actions made it clear he was on the verge of trying to punch or kick your lights out. If you attack him first, no matter how verbally abusive he's being, then you are in serious legal trouble, for one thing. And you have to live with the fact that your actions against him might result in permanent damage, for no better reason than that he was being... well, rude, stupid, whatever you want to call it.

So it's a judgment call, but you need to be clear with yourself on it---if you think you're just a few seconds away from getting attacked by someone for no better reason than their unreasoning aggression, people like the founders of moder karate would say to you, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six... but if there really was no physical threat to you and you attack, then the legal (and in my view, moral) burden falls on you for the consequences of the violence. It's a hard one, but an honest assessment of the situation at the time is your best guarantee that you're doing no more than necessary for your survival.

ohh yes Funikoshi i read alot about him and shotokan style. heres 1 more question though, im going to learn tae kwon do and can i also learn shotokan withhout conflicts?

 

[exile]

you make alot of sense, thanks mate =D

You're welcome, axal, and of course these are just my thoughts... what you're bringing up is something all MAists have to work out at one point or another. It's a good topic to bring up and get discussion going on (there have been a few threads about this already that I've seen since I joined MT... one had `first attack' as part of the thread name... if you're interested in those posts, you might try the thread-search utility that MT makes available and use the advanced search feature with `first attack' as the keywords). Plenty of back-and-forth on this one, you can count on it!

 

[Kacey]

ohh yes Funikoshi i read alot about him and shotokan style. heres 1 more question though, im going to learn tae kwon do and can i also learn shotokan withhout conflicts?

Taekwon-do and Shotokan have a great deal in common - make sure you talk to both instructors about being in both at the same time, as there will be some technical differences you'll need to watch out for - but I can't see any problems with taking both, except that, like taking two similar languages at the same time (say, French and Spanish) you're going to have a hard time sorting them out at first. It might be easier if you get a good start on one before you start the other, but you don't have to do it that way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not saying anything for or against a pre-emptive strike but you should first understand that a fight, any fight, is a VERY serious thing.

I told a true story somewhere here on MT about a Bagua master and his student that asked virtually the same question and nothing personal but I am hesitant to tell it here due to your situation and I do not really know you so I do not want to give you any ideas, but if you are interested in it somewhere out there on MT you can find it.

 

[exile]

I can't see any problems with taking both, except that, like taking two similar languages at the same time (say, French and Spanish) you're going to have a hard time sorting them out at first.

Exactly the right analogy.

The thing is, axal, Shotokan was the main foundation for TKD. Most of the founders of the systems that fused to become TKD got their formal MA training in Japan under Okinawan masters. In one of the classic manuals of TKD, S. Henry Cho says, quite bluntly, `Taek-kwon do... is idential to Japanese karate'. The two have separated, at least the way TKD is practiced in some quarters, a lot since he wrote that. But it tells you someting about their common root (in Okinawan MA, really).

It might be easier if you get a good start on one before you start the other, but you don't have to do it that way.

I second that. Nothing stops you from `visiting' one of the arts after you've had a bit of training in the other one. You'll be in a better position to see through the similarities and get a sense of the small but important differences...

 

[savior]

with TKD, try taking a little hapkido -

with joint locks and everything, you'll be able to subdue him much easier without much effort... plus, with intense pain, he'd be willing to stop..

 

[Last Fearner]

Hello axal,

In addressing your first question, I would say to heed three things. First, laws vary from place to place, and judges or juries may interpret the law, and its application to your response in a so-called self defense situation differently each time. Know the law where you live, and where you are visiting that you might encounter an aggressor.

Secondly, even if you are in the "right," legally, this does not mean that the evidence, or witnesses will prove that. Avoiding fights often means avoiding having to defend yourself again in court for criminal assault, and or civil liability suit for damages. Win or loose, it usually costs you time and money, and your reputation as a person who fights at the drop of a hat.

Finally, all confrontations have potential danger. Avoiding people and places often prevents you from taking the risk of hurting someone, or getting hurt. Even if you win the fight, you could lose an eye, or worse. Defending your brother is noble, but if you fight to put the other person in his place, perhaps you defeat this person while his buddy, whom you did not see, sticks a knife in your brother.

If you determine that the potential attacker is too aggressive, and prevents you from leaving safely, even though he has not physically assaulted you, most jurisdictions will allow you to defend yourself if you have reasonable fear for your safety (check local laws, and court precedence). To strike first is usually not contrary to self defense rules or laws, provided that you are not as much to blame for the confrontation to begin with. Verbal arguments which escalate into a physical fight are often the fault of both people. To simply say nothing and walk away, shows a desire to avoid conflict. If they pursue, or prevent you from leaving, a victim of this kind of aggressive behavior is not necessarily required to wait until the other person strikes.

If your brother was physically assaulted (shoved), then (by laws in my area) you have the right to stand in his defense, and use physical force to stop the physical aggression on your brother. Times are changing in most of society, and where it used to be prudent to give warnings, and wait to see if the attacker will strike first, today's street violence calls for more aggressive counter-measures, and preemptive tactics just to survive. In many cases, the courts have recognized this, and laws will reflect the need to protect the victims.

As to your question of training in Taekwondo and Karate (or other) it is only an added challenge, and will not be detrimental so long as you are up to the challenge (I certainly have trained in multiple variations also). As said before, notifying your instructors is a courtesy that should be observed. However, it is my opinion that you should perfect the basics to Black Belt in one school, then, if you feel you are not getting a full curriculum, branch out to find the balance.

On a final note (a bit off topic, but it was brought up), some members make statements within their answers that might be of controversy, and not agreed upon by all. I mean no disrespect or offense by addressing these comments, but I do not want them to go without the opposing viewpoint stated, lest others accept it as fact.

The thing is, axal, Shotokan was the main foundation for TKD. Most of the founders of the systems that fused to become TKD got their formal MA training in Japan under Okinawan masters. In one of the classic manuals of TKD, S. Henry Cho says, quite bluntly, `Taek-kwon do... is idential to Japanese karate'. The two have separated, at least the way TKD is practiced in some quarters, a lot since he wrote that. But it tells you someting about their common root (in Okinawan MA, really).

I want it understood that exile's comments about Taekwondo being founded in Shotokan, while I respect him and what he is saying, is an opinion, and it is based on a specific perspective relating to recent events only (post 1940s). I believe that a distinction should always be made that the foundation of individual practitioners can come from Shotokan (or other variations), but Taekwondo itself is a name for an collection of all ancient Korean Martial Art, and is not based in Shotokan.

The occupancy, and post war practice of Martial Art in Korea had no choice but to be influenced by Japanese Martial Art, and General Choi Hong Hi, who had a huge influence on the spread of Taekwondo after WWII, had his Shotokan influence made clear in his Chang-hon forms, but the name Taekwondo does not belong to those born post 1900, and is not limited to what they discovered in their short life time under Japanese occupation. In my opinion, Taekwondo is not "identical" to Karate. All Martial Art variations are inherently similar, and striking methods are naturally going to show a greater resemblance, but there are some key differences that would prevent one from being exactly interchangeable with the other.

History has multiple interpretations, and I believe it is important to hear all sides. No offense to exile as his point is valid, and true to the extent of what occurred in recent times. My perception of those events are like the fingernail on the tip of the finger attached to the hand, which extends from the arm which is connected to the whole body of what Taekwondo really is. There were five kwans, like your five fingers, but few people pay much attention to the hand, arm, and body from whence it comes, nor the other arm, nor the legs, nor heart which pumps the blood to it all, and the brain that controls everything.

Respectfully,
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Axal, what city do you live in?
Wherever it is, with the exeption of Alaska, there has got to be a martial arts school closer than 2 hours.

AoG

 

[exile]

Hello axal,

I want it understood that exile's comments about Taekwondo being founded in Shotokan, while I respect him and what he is saying, is an opinion, and it is based on a specific perspective relating to recent events only (post 1940s). I believe that a distinction should always be made that the foundation of individual practitioners can come from Shotokan (or other variations), but Taekwondo itself is a name for an collection of all ancient Korean Martial Art, and is not based in Shotokan.
... No offense to exile as his point is valid, and true to the extent of what occurred in recent times. My perception of those events are like the fingernail on the tip of the finger attached to the hand, which extends from the arm which is connected to the whole body of what Taekwondo really is. There were five kwans, like your five fingers, but few people pay much attention to the hand, arm, and body from whence it comes, nor the other arm, nor the legs, nor heart which pumps the blood to it all, and the brain that controls everything.

Hi LF---believe, no offense taken at anything you say! This issue of historical interpretation is as you say complex and dense. I respect your perspective on all this (and though it might seem like a contradiction, I actually do agree with just about everything you say!). A lot of threads are tangled together in the history of TKD, and to some extent we sort them out according to our own view of what we're looking for in the art. But I can't find fault with anything you say here.

 

[axal_the_wise]

Axal, what city do you live in?
Wherever it is, with the exeption of Alaska, there has got to be a martial arts school closer than 2 hours.

AoG

town called Man, West virginia theres no karate places in Logan County

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Wow. You were right. I searched on the internet, and found about 9 schools, but they seem to be about 50 or so miles from where you are.
In a 20 mile radius of my home, there are about 30 schools, so this is bizarre to me.

Anyway, here are my results for Man, WV:

http://yellowpages.superpages.com/l...ion^Sports+&+Fitness+Instruction^Martial+Arts

 

[Marginal]

ohh yes Funikoshi i read alot about him and shotokan style. heres 1 more question though, im going to learn tae kwon do and can i also learn shotokan withhout conflicts?

It's redundant to learn both. TKD was derived from Shotokan (sketchy ties to Korean festival games aside), they're both primarialy striking arts etc.

 

[axal_the_wise]

Wow. You were right. I searched on the internet, and found about 9 schools, but they seem to be about 50 or so miles from where you are.
In a 20 mile radius of my home, there are about 30 schools, so this is bizarre to me.

Anyway, here are my results for Man, WV:

http://yellowpages.superpages.com/l...ion^Sports+&+Fitness+Instruction^Martial+Arts

yea those are the same ones i looked into. there is only 1 who is not listed in any directory, his names larry and hes a shotokan teacher, although he doesnt have a dojo around here anymore, but hes thinking finding a place for a dojo, although that can take up to a year for him or more and i dont think i can wait that long. the place im going to, yahoo maps says its 1hour 20 minutes, Depending on how fast i would drive.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I know this is not as good, but you could go to www.meetup.com and build a martial arts workout group in your area. I did the several years back, though not through that site. That could attract someone to teach you locally. You could meet at local parks and places like that. But if no one shows up that is experienced, then this would not do you any good.

Also, you could use your local newspapers to advertise a workout group. You could use the classified sections, which would be free to use. Of course, you may end up with a serial killer or two showing up, but that is the risk you take.

Also, I looked up boxing in Man, WV and found one result:

Arne's Boxing Instruction
6735 Maccorkle Avenue, Saint Albans, WV 25177
(304) 768-6028

Is that close to you? I am a big fan of boxing. I personally prefer martial arts, but that may be an option. Also, here in my area, the 3 boxing schools do not charge any money, as they are state funded.

Oh, one more thing, are there any YMCA or community centers near you? If so, call them as soon as possible. Out of the 30 or so schools in my area, about half of them are located in centers like that, and are excellent schools. If fact, I am a "community center bred martial artist." That means that every school that I have attended was based in a community center.

AoG

 

[axal_the_wise]

holy, saint albans, never herd of it lol. but the ymca about 20 minutes away probably has something