Working from Turtle

[Steve]

Working from turtle. What's your strategy? Do you monkey roll back to guard, try to step/fall back to guard? Do you try to work offensively?

 

[Dave Leverich]

Great one actually Steve, while I don't work in nearly as much as I have say bottom in mount/guard/in half guard etc, I do some.

My biggest thing is to wall up the elbows and knees and not give any freebie arm bars etc. Then head in to avoid RNC or other chokes (gi/no-gi).

Usually for me it's a pause/go position, I don't hang there at all. I have heard of people that actively attack from turtle, but my game isn't there. I will sometimes allow hooks in to attack the shin-lock/toe-hold, but that's from CACC. If they're high up I'll try to grab the head and drive, but again I'm wary of chokes and arm triangles from there bigtime.

I'd love to hear/see flows attacking from turtle.

 

[Steve]

Awesome post. Thanks for the response.

My mission over the next month or two is to improve my game from here. I'm going to start from turtle in every sparring match and see where it goes. What I'm looking to do is to develop a reliable strategy.

I think where I'm starting is something like this:

If the person is wristriding, often done by wrestlers, I'll work to sit out and reverse or hook the arm and roll to a reversal. There's also the option to step behind him and then fall back into guard.

If he's made the mistake of putting a knee in between my legs I'll either roll to a kneebar (if he's a blue belt or above) or monkey roll to guard.

If he's sprawled in front, I'm going to try to fall back to full guard (or butterfly guard), unless I can get the single leg to reverse.

I'm going to focus when in turtle on keeping my elbows inside my knees to block the hooks and protect my arms until I'm ready to move.

So, that's my early plan. I'm sure this will change. I'll definitely keep your pointers in mind, Dave. Thanks.

Steve

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I roll and fall back into the guard but truthfully I like to get after some thing like an arm or leg and then transition into a dominant position. Worst case I roll or fall back into the guard.

 

[Nolerama]

I move into north-south and drive into my opponent and go for a leg with as deep of a hook as I can with the opposite arm, and then block my opponent's other heel with my free hand, and drive into him.

If that doesn't work, I try to keep the leg, and sit-out.

I'm not the best at getting out of turtle, and rolled back into guard or half-guard a lot, but I don't want to rely too much on my lockdown, since it's still difficult when facing a bigger, stronger opponent. So taking back, or simply getting out of there is the goal right now.

Thanks Steve. I'll start my next few rolls out in turtle.

 

[Steve]

I roll and fall back into the guard but truthfully I like to get after some thing like an arm or leg and then transition into a dominant position. Worst case I roll or fall back into the guard.

Taking an arm or a eg is great if you can get it. I find that, often, my opponent is savvy to this and won't give it up easily. One guy in particular with whom I spar often is very mobile and likes to bait you until you commit to something, then he takes advantage. I'll know if I'm improving by how I fare against him. He's my bar.

 

[Steve]

I move into north-south and drive into my opponent and go for a leg with as deep of a hook as I can with the opposite arm, and then block my opponent's other heel with my free hand, and drive into him.

If that doesn't work, I try to keep the leg, and sit-out.

I'm not the best at getting out of turtle, and rolled back into guard or half-guard a lot, but I don't want to rely too much on my lockdown, since it's still difficult when facing a bigger, stronger opponent. So taking back, or simply getting out of there is the goal right now.

Thanks Steve. I'll start my next few rolls out in turtle.

Saulo Ribeiro makes moving to a north/south type position and grabbing the single leg, but I've not found it all that easy. I know what you mean about larger guys. At 185, I'm roughly in the middle for size at my school, where at some classes, I'm among the smallest. We have a lot of really big, strong guys. It becomes a catch 22, where I can either fall back to guard and take my chances or try to take a leg or arm. What I need to do is become comfortable enough to dominate the transition. That's been the key in other positions when sparring with a larger dude.

I'm considering looking for the Turtle Guard DVD. Anyone familiar with it?

 

[Dave Leverich]

I haven't seen it Steve, but I'm curious now. It seems like a classic 'bad' position that could be turned into an advantage. I know for myself I spent about a year and a half on in half-guard from the bottom (and mount/close/open guard) simply to try and get my options from there ironed out. I could easily see the next year working on turtle attacks heh.

Maybe Decembers' 'technique of the month' thread on Lockflow should be Turtle.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Taking an arm or a eg is great if you can get it. I find that, often, my opponent is savvy to this and won't give it up easily. One guy in particular with whom I spar often is very mobile and likes to bait you until you commit to something, then he takes advantage. I'll know if I'm improving by how I fare against him. He's my bar.

Absolutely Steve. However what I try to do is bait them into doing some thing that they think will lead to a submission or improvement in their position. Ie. If they are on the side I might leave a little space for an arm or a hook and when it is inserted it is in my opinion now mine to play with and I already have the game plan or counter to my move already planned as well. Or I might leave some space by one of my arms as a bait and maybe they will go for it. If I totally tighten up the turtle then they have nothing to really get after so the idea is to initially tighten up but as they are moving open a place and walla they think they have an opening but really I gave it to them and have already set the trap!

 

[Nolerama]

Hey, thanks again for the inspiration to work from turtle. My last training night got me looking for a number of tricks to get out and increase my position.


Turtle
North/South:
-single leg/sit out
-waited for opponent to drive, then rolled back into guard. usually half guard, but liked it a lot better when i managed to roll into butterfly
-sit-out into half guard (not my fave and I suspect would work as well if our contact level was higher)

Side Control:
-blade and get my knee in to pull guard.
-fake grabbing a leg (or just grab a leg) and fight for dogfight... I'd like to work on this a little more. It worked in isolation, and kind of worked for me when rolling.


There's a lot I'd like to try. Any more suggestions?

 

[Steve]

I got a lot of sparring in tonight and had some success starting most of my matches from turtle.

I did learn some things tonight. First, when my opponent is, say, to my left side and leaving a little space, I can either step behind with my left leg, push in just a bit then fall back to recover guard. Or, if he's driving in, I can roll over my left shoulder and swing my right leg around to get back to guard (or snag a triangle if I'm lucky). I got both of these to work several times tonight.

One of the purple belts gave me a tip, similar to what you mentioned, Nolerama. When my opponent is north/south, I'm reluctant to try and fall back to guard because I can end up guillotined or at best, squished in half. The key is to drive into him to create some space so that when I fall back I can clear my head.

As an aside, the second part of my current goals is to open up my guard game. So, when I do get back to guard, I try to open up and work for hooks and grips, playing with some spider/de la riva sweeps I know (but suck at). Success here is pretty hit and miss. But what I'm looking for is to cycle back to turtle if my guard gets passed.

 

[chinaboxer]

i'm always trying to get a leg between his and roll to leg locks or looking for a wrestling switch to take his back. if he has north/south, then i'll grab a single leg and get sideways to his position and get tight to his side then drive into him and grab the double to take side position. this also protects you from any guillotine choke which is pretty common from that position.

 

[Andrew Green]

Working from turtle. What's your strategy? Do you monkey roll back to guard, try to step/fall back to guard? Do you try to work offensively?

Offensive, guard is a last resort.

If a arm is there, take and roll, doesn't matter where they are.

If they are in front and you can get a leg, grab it, suck it under you and get a angle (head inside) drive in and pull the foot between the knees.

If that's not there and there weight is on you go to a peek out.

Of the side if you can slip a knee under you can probably roll them, there near knee should be in front or back, if it is against your thigh you can use it.

If thats not there turn into them and go towards the far leg, taking it from the outside, not the inside (reach between their legs and you get crucifixed) or look for a switch.

If they are behind you without hooks you should be looking to grab a arm and roll, or the head if they are high. If they are being lazy with their legs you might be able to hook one and roll for a leg lock.

If they are riding fairly low and hanging on at the waist sit-out and hip heist or standup with good wrist control.

 

[Steve]

Offensive, guard is a last resort.

If a arm is there, take and roll, doesn't matter where they are.

If they are in front and you can get a leg, grab it, suck it under you and get a angle (head inside) drive in and pull the foot between the knees.

If that's not there and there weight is on you go to a peek out.

Of the side if you can slip a knee under you can probably roll them, there near knee should be in front or back, if it is against your thigh you can use it.

If thats not there turn into them and go towards the far leg, taking it from the outside, not the inside (reach between their legs and you get crucifixed) or look for a switch.

If they are behind you without hooks you should be looking to grab a arm and roll, or the head if they are high. If they are being lazy with their legs you might be able to hook one and roll for a leg lock.

If they are riding fairly low and hanging on at the waist sit-out and hip heist or standup with good wrist control.

Great post. I was with you for 90% of it, but am not sure what you mean by "peek out". Is that the same as a sit out?

I'm also interested in this one: "If thats not there turn into them and go towards the far leg, taking it from the outside, not the inside (reach between their legs and you get crucifixed) or look for a switch."

I don't know what you mean, but it sounds cool.

 

[Andrew Green]

Great post. I was with you for 90% of it, but am not sure what you mean by "peek out". Is that the same as a sit out?

Here's the only video I could find quickly:

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And here is a photo series with explanation:

http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/technique/Peekout/default.php

It's a great way to recover from a failed double, or when the guy is in front. You can't do it if he has a underhook on that side, so if he's got double under hooks this won't work.


[/quote]
I'm also interested in this one: "If thats not there turn into them and go towards the far leg, taking it from the outside, not the inside (reach between their legs and you get crucifixed) or look for a switch."

I don't know what you mean, but it sounds cool. [/quote]

Basic single leg, but if you reach between a guys legs when he is on the sideyou expose the arm. Hook the other arm with your arm and roll and you have a crucifix. So when you attack the legs from the bottom you need to go from the outside, not the inside. Meaning if he is on my right I need to go after his left leg.

This is a switch:

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[Dave Leverich]

Thanks for that Andrew! So basically it's an abbreviated sit-out, to avoid being passed. I like, and actually that video is really nice covering quite a few options. Thanks!