Where have all the FMAs gone?

[Carol]

Interesting point for discussion.

In his blog Tuhon Gaje muses that indiginous FMAs are hard to find.

What do you think? Are they?

 

[kuntawguro]

True, many of the original FMA are still around unaltered- but, isn't that the nature of FMA?

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Failure to adapt is failure to survive.

But what do I know I'm a just another %-}

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Failure to adapt is failure to survive.

But what do I know I'm a just another %-}

Definately a very true statement Bill!

I really respect Leo T. Gaje and his Pekiti Tirsia FMA. However, in general the filipino arts have been adding and subtracting techniques for years. (based on what works) They are a real melting pot of deadly fighting systems. That truely is the beauty of the FMA's in my opinion!

 

[Bill Bednarick]

I sometimes wonder about the arts now here in the states. All the arts not just FMAs.

How many generations have to go by for the art to be considered native to the area?

Can they truly be anything other than American when taught by Americans to Americans in America.

Please feel free to substitute any place and people in the above statement.

Does BJJ have no value as it is now Brazilian? When can it be considered Canadian [SIZE=-1]Jujitsu[/SIZE]?

I do understand the point Tuhon Gaje is making, and it sort of fits with my line of questioning.

I could teach you arnis and eskrima but is it still Filipino at this point?
This is not to say you don't give credit to the culture your art is from or that you conceal the origin of it.

But is it truly pure and does it really matter?

 

[Andrew Green]

True, many of the original FMA are still around unaltered- but, isn't that the nature of FMA?

I wonder if this has something to do with Japanese styles influence on the martial arts. Where things where codified into specific styles that where not to be altered by mere mortals, but preserved.

Prior to early in the 20th century the idea of a "style" in the modern sense seems pretty absent. Just about all the masters crosstrained and combined things that where taught to them by different people.

Nowadays a lot of people seem to want a unbroken chain back to some famous guy in Asia with a style that is exactly as he taught it.

Does BJJ have no value as it is now Brazilian? When can it be considered Canadian [SIZE=-1]Jujitsu[/SIZE]?

When you pull his gi over his head and punch him on the face

 

[stickmaster2000]

I agree with most of what has already been said. The FMA has always adapted to the times, that's what gives it its great strength. Adaptability in a changing world (and in combat) is essential for survival and FMA exemplify this more than most other styles or systems.

 

[Carol]

Something that has has impressed me is the way that Filipino arts have been able to add and subtract influences...and still stay recognizably Filipino.

American Kenpo for example...its...well...American (Hawaiian) and Kenpoists sometimes debate over how much is of Chinese influence and how much is Japanese or Okinawan influence. However, I don't usually hear Modern Arnis referred to as anything other than a Filipino art, depsite the influences of Shotokan on Professor Presas.

 

[stickmaster2000]

I had another thought on this subject last night. Although the FMA often graft other ideas/techniques etc to the art which has allowed it to develop and grow it has also caused a decline in its depth. Not to those who really study the FMA as a central focus but to the other styles and systems that often attach it as a kind of sub-section to their own art.

For example, Taekwondo schools where the instructor attends a few FMA seminars and then attaches thes techniques to their Taekwondo so that they have some weapons tactics etc.

Often, what is then called FMA is nothing more than a few FMA techniques taught within a Taekwondo class. The level of knowledge is often very low as are the technical skills taught.

I think there are too many (fast track) learning programmes out their which allow Instructors to become certified to teach FMA to soon. It is the depth of skill and knowledge that is often lacking.

Perhaps this is what Tuhon Gaje was getting at??

 

[Carol]

I had another thought on this subject last night. Although the FMA often graft other ideas/techniques etc to the art which has allowed it to develop and grow it has also caused a decline in its depth. Not to those who really study the FMA as a central focus but to the other styles and systems that often attach it as a kind of sub-section to their own art.

For example, Taekwondo schools where the instructor attends a few FMA seminars and then attaches thes techniques to their Taekwondo so that they have some weapons tactics etc.

Often, what is then called FMA is nothing more than a few FMA techniques taught within a Taekwondo class. The level of knowledge is often very low as are the technical skills taught.

I think there are too many (fast track) learning programmes out their which allow Instructors to become certified to teach FMA to soon. It is the depth of skill and knowledge that is often lacking.

Perhaps this is what Tuhon Gaje was getting at??

Interesting point. That could indeed be what Tuhon is referring to.

And it's a very valid point...one that I can relate to personally.

At my last private, Guro May was reminding me for the umpteenth time to not use backhand strikes when doing strikes. She didn't remind me of this because she saw me actually doing backhand strikes, but because this was a bad habit that I had when I began my training under her earlier and dogged me for several months.

I developed the habit from having learned a sinawali pattern in a non-FMA situation from an instructor that didn't catch the bad mechanics. The FMAs are popular with other MAists because of their weaponry, much like BJJ is popular with other MAists because of its ground game. Unfortunately, I'm afraid there are too many examples of both arts being taught very badly due to an instructor's insufficient background.

Time will tell how much effect that will have on the FMAs as a whole.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I had another thought on this subject last night. Although the FMA often graft other ideas/techniques etc to the art which has allowed it to develop and grow it has also caused a decline in its depth. Not to those who really study the FMA as a central focus but to the other styles and systems that often attach it as a kind of sub-section to their own art.

For example, Taekwondo schools where the instructor attends a few FMA seminars and then attaches thes techniques to their Taekwondo so that they have some weapons tactics etc.

Often, what is then called FMA is nothing more than a few FMA techniques taught within a Taekwondo class. The level of knowledge is often very low as are the technical skills taught.

I think there are too many (fast track) learning programmes out their which allow Instructors to become certified to teach FMA to soon. It is the depth of skill and knowledge that is often lacking.

Perhaps this is what Tuhon Gaje was getting at??

This is definately a very serious issue in the FMA's. However a school or program that does this certainly is not really teaching FMA's (as they do not have the depth) but generally in my observation just some flashy stick work that many FMA practitioner's would not care for.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Carol,
You were just hitting with whatever part of the stick that was available?

In this case the backside?

I'm prone to blame that more on the use of a stick in the place of a blade, and I see it frequently with people that have never trained in any other arts.

In fact I did a little bit too when I started.

I still do it now BTW, but it is used as a hooking clear of the opponents weapon.

On to the issue of purity in FMA.

Truthfully I think it's more about proper application and usage than purity.

You could have generations of students that do some technique purely, based on the one way and never changed it cause "that's how we do it".

And that technique could be seriously flawed even dangerous to the user. But it would be "pure" because it had NEVER been changed or diluted.

Problem is, the best way of measuring an art is very difficult to describe to people with words.

Flow? A good art has this, all good arts do.

But can you describe it when you don't have it yet?
You may have seen it at the start of your training.
But could you put it into words?

It's the very heart of FMA and even people that have it may be hard pressed to give you a description of it.

Is flow assured by "purity"?

NOPE, but a toolbox full of non connected techniques certainly won't give it.
And a lot of the non pure "systems" are just that.
A big bag of stuff with little connecting the parts.

I know there are systems of FMA that are not pure in the sense of a long unchanged lineage that have the connectedness and FLOW.

But how do you draw the line?

Is it purity of linage? Or purity of martial intent?

I choose martial intent.%-}

 

[Carol]

Carol,
You were just hitting with whatever part of the stick that was available?

In this case the backside?

Yup. I knew absolutely squat about knuckle alignment, blade position, or anything like that...and was never advised to make a correction.

I knew I was wailing at my assigned partner and we were making contact so I thought I was doing something right.

I probably developed the bad habit because when we did stick drills, most of us used the school's sticks...which were all hardwoods. I know the impact the hardwood transferred in to my hands was very disturbing, I suspect what I did was move my hand around a lot over the course of the drill to help lessen the discomfort of the impact.

Bad habits burn in so easily.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yup. I knew absolutely squat about knuckle alignment, blade position, or anything like that...and was never advised to make a correction.

Bad habits burn in so easily.

Carol you have no idea how many people I have had to correct through the years because their initial instructor had very little training and made lot's and lot's of mistakes.

Sometimes it is almost impossible to correct.

 

[JBrainard]

Flow? A good art has this, all good arts do.

But can you describe it when you don't have it yet?
You may have seen it at the start of your training.
But could you put it into words?

It's the very heart of FMA and even people that have it may be hard pressed to give you a description of it.

Is flow assured by "purity"?

NOPE, but a toolbox full of non connected techniques certainly won't give it.
And a lot of the non pure "systems" are just that.
A big bag of stuff with little connecting the parts.

I know there are systems of FMA that are not pure in the sense of a long unchanged lineage that have the connectedness and FLOW.

Perhapse off topic, but perhapse not: The flow of FMA is one of the things that got me interested in the first place. I don't have the "flow," but my teacher has amazing flow, and some of the black belts are pretty good too. I think the "tool box" is what you learn up to around the black belt level, then it is up to you to develop your own flow, as it is a pretty personal thing. What flows naturally from my teacher most likely won't be what flows naturally from me.
But being as I am a begginer, some of this is just conjecture

 

[stickmaster2000]

Yes, flow is a defining concept within the FMA which is why, I think, so many new students to the FMA who have come from backgrounds that teach 'stacato' movement i.e. Karate etc. Have such difficulty with this concept.

Regarding backhand striking. A student of mine who went to train at the Inosanto Academy found himself getting into trouble during training. When taking a Jun Fan class the techniques would use backhand strike, when taking an FMA class, similar techniques would use hammer fist strike. He found it frustrating that one class told him one thing while the other class told him diffently.

Getting back to the point regarding the thread. One of the driving reason for me originally coming over to the Philippines from the UK was the very fact that I could never find an instructor who had a deep enough understanding of FMA. So I decided that if the mountain won't come to me, then I must go to the mountain.

It is certainly true that you gain a very different perspective of FMA once you actually train in the Philippines.

 

[Hand Sword]

Carol you have no idea how many people I have had to correct through the years because their initial instructor had very little training and made lot's and lot's of mistakes.

Sometimes it is almost impossible to correct.

I have heard this for many years as a chief complaint in the FMA world. Would it be better to get rid of the round sticks and go to a wooden blade weapon that the sticks replaced for training the FMA's instead?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have heard this for many years as a chief complaint in the FMA world. Would it be better to get rid of the round sticks and go to a wooden blade weapon that the sticks replaced for training the FMA's instead?

Personally I think so and yet training with the sticks has been very important because you can move quicker and hit harder. However, with some of the new age materials that we now have you can easily start with the blade from day one and keep it that way and this is probably the way to go for the future.

 

[JBrainard]

Personally I think so and yet training with the sticks has been very important because you can move quicker and hit harder. However, with some of the new age materials that we now have you can easily start with the blade from day one and keep it that way and this is probably the way to go for the future.

I must add that some modern FMA techniques wouldn't work with a real blade. You have to use a stick (i.e. blunt weapon) or get yourself all cut up. With that in mind, I really don't see the value in moving from sticks to simulated blades.

 

[Carol]

The way Mike and May train, teaching good mechanics is only the first part of training. They also drill like they were taught in the Philippines, so the movement is natural, instantanious, and instinctual.

They've recommended to me to practice with a training blade as well as a stick. The blade for understanding the mechanics and fine-tuning the movements, the stick for flow and instinctuality. I can't "cheat" by peeking at the blade when I'm using a stick.

I don't think the physical medium of the training should be changed, I think the instruction should be changed. I see on forums for other arts how different stylists are trying to add different elements to their art and even propogate it through their organizations...leaving some teachers trying to teach principles that they themselves have never done properly. That results in a bad situation for all the arts involved.