When an adult took a standardized test...

[Makalakumu]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...orced-on-kids/2011/12/05/gIQApTDuUO_blog.html

A longtime friend on the school board of one of the largest school systems in America did something that few public servants are willing to do. He took versions of his state’s high-stakes standardized math and reading tests for 10th graders, and said he’d make his scores public.


By any reasonable measure, my friend is a success. His now-grown kids are well-educated. He has a big house in a good part of town. Paid-for condo in the Caribbean. Influential friends. Lots of frequent flyer miles. Enough time of his own to give serious attention to his school board responsibilities. The margins of his electoral wins and his good relationships with administrators and teachers testify to his openness to dialogue and willingness to listen.


He called me the morning he took the test to say he was sure he hadn’t done well, but had to wait for the results. A couple of days ago, realizing that local school board members don’t seem to be playing much of a role in the current “reform” brouhaha, I asked him what he now thought about the tests he’d taken.
“I won’t beat around the bush,” he wrote in an email. “The math section had 60 questions. I knew the answers to none of them, but managed to guess ten out of the 60 correctly. On the reading test, I got 62% . In our system, that’s a “D”, and would get me a mandatory assignment to a double block of reading instruction.


He continued, “It seems to me something is seriously wrong. I have a bachelor of science degree, two masters degrees, and 15 credit hours toward a doctorate.


“I help oversee an organization with 22,000 employees and a $3 billion operations and capital budget, and am able to make sense of complex data related to those responsibilities.


“I have a wide circle of friends in various professions. Since taking the test, I’ve detailed its contents as best I can to many of them, particularly the math section, which does more than its share of shoving students in our system out of school and on to the street. Not a single one of them said that the math I described was necessary in their profession.

Can we please stop doing this to kids?

 

[SuperFLY]

trying not to start a big argument here id just like to mention the point it makes a HUGE difference if you're actually studying the material you're being tested on.

I would never expect a person, successful or otherwise to come in off the street and ace a test designed for people that have been studying the material day in day out for the last year or more. doubt id do as well on my GCSEs/A-levels now as well as i did back at school yet id count myself as a smart person with an intellectual job I love (software developer) for the simple reason that I've been out of the school system for roughly 10 years.

my memory has never been that good but ask me to remember the equations for finding the circumference of a circle or how to find the length of a triangle given the other 2 sides, etc.. etc.. and id struggle to remember off the top of my head (internet spoils me, heh) but back in school i was having these equations, methods, etc.. drummed into me day in day out so I was much better equipped to handle my tests.

in short, to me, a person, successful, smart or otherwise coming off the street as it were and getting an average grade in a standard test means absolutely nothing!

although it is a refreshing change, don't know what its like in the US but over here we're always moaning the tests have gotten too easy!!

 

[Tez3]

Is there a copy of the test for us to see? All I could find on here was links to more articles.

Superfly, I downloaded a book onto my Kindle called 'I used to know that' by Caroline Taggert, it has all the things we learned at school but are now stuck at the back of our memories! covers English language, literature, maths, science, geography, history and general studies etc, it's all on the basis that we did know it just need reminding!

 

[Razor]

As Superfly says, the tests are in context. They are used to assess "fluid intelligence" or reasoning and the children are trained in how to approach the questions, even though in a different context an adult may not be able to.

Over the last few months I have been helping my younger brother through the 11+ test. My father has a B.Sc in Mathematics, my mother a B.A in History and they both had problems with the mathematics and literature based questions. I took the test about 8 years ago and I did better than my parents, and better than my brother at first (when taking the test again just to make sure I knew what I was helping him with!). Then he passed the test, which I had originally just failed and had to appeal to pass.

This goes to show that standardised tests are aimed at certain groups of people; for example, IQ tests can be different depending on whether they are aimed at children or adults. I'm sure plenty of adults would have problems with standardised tests, GCSE, A-Level/High school if they were to attempt them now.

 

[granfire]

The biggest problem I am having with these tests is that at least in one school from the first of the year until April when the tests were taken they dind't do any studying, any learning, only drilling for the tests.

They had to, because the future of the schools depends on how well the students perform.

 

[punisher73]

Not sure the point of the story other than to point out the fact that we all know. If you don't study for a test on material you don't use, then you probably won't do well on it, or it was done by somebody with a political agenda to make it into something that it's not.

For example, when I was in high school I looked into joining the military as an option. I took the ASVAB test and scored very high on it. I ended up going to college instead and earning a bachelor's degree. Years later, I looked into maybe enhancing my skills as an LEO by joining the reserves. I got a practice ASVAB test book and was shocked to find that I couldn't do most of the math on there. Why? Because I don't need any of it for my job as an LEO.

Most adults are in the same situation, if they don't use a skill as part of their everyday life or job, then they are going to forget it and need to polish up on the skill.

To me, one of the biggest problems is allowing kids to use calculators for everything. They get so used to using them that when tested on a standardized test they forget the process since they don't use it. When I was in school we couldn't use one until the upper levels of math and for graphing functions. It was drilled in how to do all the basic applications of algebra and add/subtract/mulitply/divide

 

[crushing]

I don't think the question being asked by the OP is "Why did the successful adult fail the test?", but "Why is the test asking questions that successful, educated adults can't answer?" In other words, is this test really an adequate gauge of the preparedness of students to become contributing members of society?

 

[ballen0351]

Superfly, I downloaded a book onto my Kindle called 'I used to know that' by Caroline Taggert, it has all the things we learned at school but are now stuck at the back of our memories! covers English language, literature, maths, science, geography, history and general studies etc, it's all on the basis that we did know it just need reminding!

Its like when your trying to help your kid do homework. I sit there sometimes looking at the math problems and think I know I knew this at some point in my life but now I just go blank.

 

[SuperFLY]

I don't think the question being asked by the OP is "Why did the successful adult fail the test?", but "Why is the test asking questions that successful, educated adults can't answer?" In other words, is this test really an adequate gauge of the preparedness of students to become contributing members of society?

is ANY test an adequate gauge of this? a test is just proving you can remember things. says nothing about your personality, common sense and very little about effort you put into your tasks.

this is one of the reasons i never liked tests/exams when i was at school. i was very good at working things out but regurgitating facts and figures from memory let me down. I did so much better when i went to college and most of the grades were based on coursework instead of just exams.

imo coursework tells you a lot more about the individual than test scores ever would. have they just done the minimum required? have they added extras? made it look nice? etc.. etc.. gives them the freedom to let their personality show in their work and tells you a lot more about the effort and pride that person is willing to put into their work than just answering some maths questions.

 

[crushing]

Its like when your trying to help your kid do homework. I sit there sometimes looking at the math problems and think I know I knew this at some point in my life but now I just go blank.

Math is being taught differently and the math questions are being asked in a different manner than they used to be. Math was taught to me as a set of rules and instructions re-enforced through a series of drills. The way my children are being taught math is more of a 'discover and explore' method called "whole math." When I help my daughter, who is in high school, with her math homework many of the math problems are fuzzy, and there isn't necessarily one correct answer. This has led me to tell her on more than one occasion, "Find the best answer you can based on the information provided and be able to defend that answer."

 

[granfire]

I don't think the question being asked by the OP is "Why did the successful adult fail the test?", but "Why is the test asking questions that successful, educated adults can't answer?" In other words, is this test really an adequate gauge of the preparedness of students to become contributing members of society?

I suppose at that stage in life they could go either way, needing the skills, part of them or non at all....

 

[jks9199]

Math is being taught differently and the math questions are being asked in a different manner than they used to be. Math was taught to me as a set of rules and instructions re-enforced through a series of drills. The way my children are being taught math is more of a 'discover and explore' method called "whole math." When I help my daughter, who is in high school, with her math homework many of the math problems are fuzzy, and there isn't necessarily one correct answer. This has led me to tell her on more than one occasion, "Find the best answer you can based on the information provided and be able to defend that answer."

That doesn't make sense... Math has one answer. There may be different routes to get there, but there's one answer.

1+1=2. It doesn't equal something between 1 and 3. The square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the sides of the right triangle. Not is about equal to half the larger leg added to the short leg. If Susy has 3 apples and she gives one to Johnny, she only has 2 apples left. Not Johnny gets angry that Susy still has more, so sits and complains until she gives him another apple.

 

[crushing]

Math doesn't always have one answer.

The simplest example that came to mind:

Solve for x,
|x| = 1

Or something a little more complex,
Using the numbers 1 through 9 in order, construct a math problem that equals 100.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't think the question being asked by the OP is "Why did the successful adult fail the test?", but "Why is the test asking questions that successful, educated adults can't answer?" In other words, is this test really an adequate gauge of the preparedness of students to become contributing members of society?

I think that is one question you could ask, but another deeper question would be whether or not people can adequately predict what another person needs to know. When you look at this article from that perspective, the whole idea testing becomes absurd...and the whole idea of traditional education as most of us know it anyway, follows it into absurdity.

 

[elder999]

Well, John-while I don't agree with a lot of the standardized testing agenda, I have a few questions.

If the reading comprehension test was typical of its like, then it had reading selections with multiple choice questions based on them-based on that format, I have to wonder how an adult could get such a low score on that part of the examination: I mean, if you don't remember the answer, you can look at the selection again and find it. If it was multiple choice questinos based on a reading curriculum for that particular school, though, then the board member can nbe forgiven-not sure I could answer comprehensive questions on 'Native Son without reading it again.

In the matter of the mathematics, though-10th grade math in this country is typically geometry, with a smattering of trig. Unless you're a sailor (like me) or an engineer (like me) or a physicist ( :lfao: like me....) then you really, really don't have much use for geometry, or trig. As it is, in each of those endeavors, there are really only a few formulae and equations that I use enough to remember, and a few more that I'd have to refresh my knowledge-as in "look up" to use. This is, in my opinion, what an education is really about-not just expanding the knowledge base, but teaching people where and how to find information. Odds are good that beyong the Pythagorean theorem (

), most of us don't remember much of our high school geometry at all.

In any case, short of those exaples, I can't think of many people with any use for geometry-tradesmen like fine woodworkers, masons, and sailors, ironically.....

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, John-while I don't agree with a lot of the standardized testing agenda, I have a few questions.

If the reading comprehension test was typical of its like, then it had reading selections with multiple choice questions based on them-based on that format, I have to wonder how an adult could get such a low score on that part of the examination: I mean, if you don't remember the answer, you can look at the selection again and find it. If it was multiple choice questinos based on a reading curriculum for that particular school, though, then the board member can nbe forgiven-not sure I could answer comprehensive questions on 'Native Son without reading it again.

In the matter of the mathematics, though-10th grade math in this country is typically geometry, with a smattering of trig. Unless you're a sailor (like me) or an engineer (like me) or a physicist ( :lfao: like me....) then you really, really don't have much use for geometry, or trig. As it is, in each of those endeavors, there are really only a few formulae and equations that I use enough to remember, and a few more that I'd have to refresh my knowledge-as in "look up" to use. This is, in my opinion, what an education is really about-not just expanding the knowledge base, but teaching people where and how to find information. Odds are good that beyong the Pythagorean theorem (

), most of us don't remember much of our high school geometry at all.

In any case, short of those examples, I can't think of many people with any use for geometry-tradesmen like fine woodworkers, masons, and sailors, ironically.....

For the sake of clarity, could you restate your questions? I underlined one that I might be able to address.

When a person reads a passage in a book, how are they processing the information? Are they sifting the text for details or are they looking for deeper meaning? Do they even understand what they read? What kinds of questions are asked on standardized tests? Do these questions reflect how people actively use their reading skills in their life? Can some of the ways in which people use their reading skills be captured via testing?

 

[David43515]

I teach English here in Japan, and when I walk into a classroom after they`ve just finished a Mathematics class, I`m always ashamed to say that not only do I not know the answers to the problems on the board.....I don`t even recognize what type of math they`re studying. And yet when I was younger I worked as a carpenter and in a machine shop and also did light book keeping at several resturants where I worked. I was known for being able to do all the required figures quickly, accurately, and more often than not, in my head. So while there may not be a direct application of the types of math they`re testing, at least in theory they`re teaching critical thinking and problem solving that has indirect application in other areas. (Like the times my friends in the machine shop would look at something I`d been working on and ask when I`d learned to do Trig. (The answer was "Never, as far as I know. Is that what this is?")

But the fact that people are scoring so poorly in things like reading comprehension really bothers me. Because no kid graduates school with all the specific knowledge needed for most jobs, at least at the required levels of skill. That`s never been the goal of primary education. The goal has been to give a broad basic set of knowledge and skills that everyone should have and then allow the student to learn the rest in more specific secondary education or job training. But that assumes that the student has enough command of the language to be able to understand what they`re being taught. I`ve always told my students that of all the ten subjects they study, the two most important are Japanese and English. The reasons are simple, being able to explain things to other people and understand the explanations of others are the single most important skills they will ever have. With them they can learn and teach about anything they are interested in, and without them they can`t learn anything else in any real depth. If the tests are showing that much failure in something so basic, it means that the kids either need to be retaught or the system itself needs to be redesigned.

 

[David43515]

Elder just hit the nail on the head. So much of what they taught when we were in school (Oh so many years ago) wasn`t just facts and figures, but rather how to find information you needed. I see so many kids today who haven`t got a clue how to look up anything beyond doing a google search for it.

 

[Makalakumu]

Elder just hit the nail on the head. So much of what they taught when we were in school (Oh so many years ago) wasn`t just facts and figures, but rather how to find information you needed. I see so many kids today who haven`t got a clue how to look up anything beyond doing a google search for it.

As a response to the idea that kids don't have a clue how to find information, I must post this.

http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education.html

Children KNOW how to find the information they need. It's part of their nature. I posit that the incurious, apathetic and helpless aspect we see in children (and adults) is something that school is causing. My hunch is that this aspect is the actual thing standardized tests measure.

 

[granfire]

Gathering information is so much different than it used to be.

I used to spend hours thumbing through an encyclopedia, just for fun. Looking for one thing getting sidetracked by other stuff.....