"what separates the warrior from the predator"

[Xue Sheng]

I was reading a description of a book in the latest YMAA catalog and I found it rather interesting, enough to make me think I may just buy this for my next book after I am done reading what is currently on my shelves screaming to be read.

The book is Martial Way and its Virtue – Tao De Gung
By F. J. Chu.

What I read was

Martial arts without compassion and honor promises only violence. Stripped of its spirituality, it threatens injury and suffering to both its victims and its practitioners. In the end, this higher ideal is what separates the warrior from the predator.

Now my views on spirituality in MA are easy to find throughout MT but I will say this little blurb I found interesting and it did make me think.

Thought?

 

[hpulley]

This sounds very interesting though it also sounds somewhat like the question of what separates people from animals (if anything)? I'm not religious but many would say spirituality is what separates us; I think we can have compassion without spirituality but I may be in the minority. Certainly we have enough brain power to think about more than just our daily survival and this lets us think of things and do things beyond instinct but why one does things is an intriguing discussion for sure. One can also ask, what separates a warrior and a murderer? I think it is more than just doing it for ones country. May have to pick this one up. Thanks for the tip.

 

[grydth]

I own this book, but haven't read it as yet.

I agree with the sentiment - To be a successful predator one need only possess the requisite hunting and fighting skills; the warrior must have these, but also fights for something greater than themself.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have always felt that the Martial arts at their highest level are a method to spiritual development.

After all the battles are fought and safety is secured then we must strive higher in our training to achieve the next level.

So much of our greatest battles are within.

Ok enough rambling.

 

[MA-Caver]

My thoughts:
A (human) predator is wholly selfish. He does nothing except that it will chiefly serve him/her alone. Others pain, misery, deaths mean nothing to Them. They hunt for prey, seeking among the people the weak and defenseless. They look for those who are easiest to exploit with the least amount of damage to themselves. They care not for the laws of the land nor the practitioners and defenders of the laws. They will strike with little or no warning preferring rather surprise than a straight forward approach. They have no concept of honor because they have no honor... nor do they seek it. Like a cockroach they thrive on chaos and disorder for it offers them easier and more plentiful prey. They are anarchists and will do whatever they can to spread it around. They thrive on their negative/bad emotions and are driven by it. They are in every sense of the word evil.

A warrior opposes the predator in many ways. Their motives are not always just for themselves. They will go out of their way to defend the helpless and weak. They will not seek conflict but will not shirk from it should it arise or becomes necessary. They adhere to the laws of the land and those who defend the laws. They will forewarn before combat or attempt to find more peaceful avenues before engaging. They understand honor because they have honor and while they do not actively seek it they will not shy away from it. They will exercise control over themselves in the course of combat they will know when a fight is over and will not continue it unnecessarily. They know how to assess the situation should the odds are against them and that it would be for them a losing situation and find no shame in retreat should that opportunity presents it self. If no retreat is available they will fight to their utmost ability and still exercise control until it is finished... however it turns out.
They seek calm, peace and harmony with all things/people/places. They fight reluctantly but completely and to the best of their ability and seek a clean and true victory which bestows upon them honor and self respect. They know themselves and are true to it.

The differences/separation between the two are clear at least for me. Having been both at one time or another over the course of my life (thus far). I regret my past misdeeds and try to rectify them by doing good to others whenever/however I can. Whenever possible I pass on the good knowledge that I have and continually gain through this life.

:asian:

 

[Big Don]

To answer the question in the thread title "What separates the warrior from the predator?"
One word: Intent

 

[Cirdan]

To answer the question in the thread title "What separates the warrior from the predator?"
One word: Intent

Perhaps it could also be Point of View?

Or is that what separates the white knight and the black knight?

 

[Big Don]

Perhaps it could also be Point of View?

Or is that what separates the white knight and the black knight?

No. I think intent is THE word. It is the difference between a block (A bucking force used against a weapon in motion or not in motion, NOT INTENDED TO HARM) and a STRIKE which is can only be used with an intention to harm.

 

[Sukerkin]

To answer the question in the thread title "What separates the warrior from the predator?"
One word: Intent

Just the tack I was going to take on the subject :tup:.

 

[morph4me]

I think that the thing that seperates a predator and a warrior is motivation, not spirituality. A predator is motivated by personal needs or desires, and like all predators in nature, they look for the slow and weak to prey on, they aren't looking for a fight. Predators don't stop when they're goals are accomplished, they continue for pleasure. A warrior does what's necessary because it is necessary and only what's necessary, for the defense of himself, his principles or ideals, or others who, for whatever reason, can't defend themselves. A warrior isn't looking for prey, and predators will usually avoid a warrior unless travelling in packs. Basically predators are cowards, and warriors have a fortitude that predators don't.

 

[hpulley]

I think you are humanizing predator here. In nature a predator is simply one who must kill others to survive. They aren't cowards, they are simply surviving, mostly on instinct. They prey on the weaker ones because that is a good strategy to survive; attacking the strong is risky.

The warrior doesn't fight wars just to survive. He does it for a greater purpose. The simplest defender is only defending the self or the family but the warrior is usually part of a larger society with a larger part to defend. This takes us in a whole new direction but not necessarily a spiritual one. Warriors must believe in what they are defending and must believe it is right to do this so perhaps that is the spiritual part but I believe it goes further than that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Although I like the quote I posted I will admit I was very hesitant about posting it because of the use of “spirituality” I have my thoughts on this and as I said they are on MT if any one cares to see them.

I agree with hpulley that we are humanizing predator here and that a predator is in an over-all sense simply a hunter. And I do feel that when you humanize it and you are talking a human predator preying on other humans you are talking more to a lack of morality than cowardice. Although I do not doubt in some it does originate in cowardice, but not all IMO.

I think that the thing that seperates a predator and a warrior is motivation, not spirituality. A predator is motivated by personal needs or desires, and like all predators in nature, they look for the slow and weak to prey on, they aren't looking for a fight. Predators don't stop when they're goals are accomplished, they continue for pleasure. A warrior does what's necessary because it is necessary and only what's necessary, for the defense of himself, his principles or ideals, or others who, for whatever reason, can't defend themselves. A warrior isn't looking for prey, and predators will usually avoid a warrior unless travelling in packs. Basically predators are cowards, and warriors have a fortitude that predators don't.

I have a question here and it comes more from my dislike about discussions on things spiritual tied to MA than anything else. The original quote also mentioned compassion and honor promises as what separates a warrior form a predator and since I feel as far as humans it may be more a lack of compassion for your fellow man and a lack of any sense of honor that makes one a predator as opposed to a warrior and that when some one trained MA without any sense of compassion or honor that can lead to one being a predator. Would you or anyone feel that would also be the difference even more so than anything someone might call spirituality?

 

[Cirdan]

To me the term warrior simply means someone with a degree of martial skill and who is prepeared to cause (and face) injury and possibly death when he/she decides to make use of those skills. There is nothing heroic about this except a minimum of dicipline. A warrior might also be a predator but a predator does not neccesarily have the qualities of a warrior.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think intent is the key as well. A predator has the intent to hunt and kill...or, to humanize it, a predator is only after hurting his/her opponent with no real purpose other than either the competition aspect or "the thrill of the hunt". A warrior has the intent of not hurting his/her opponent, but instead fights for a specific purpose...i.e. to protect him/herself or others.

 

[JBrainard]

There are a few posts here that seem to imply that a warrior does not have the intent to hurt his/her opponent. I would have to disagree. If the situation deems it necessary, the warrior is very much intent on hurting, even killing his/her oppent. I would say that there is a big difference between a "warrior" and ourselves. I think we all strive (or should strive) to fight with compassion and honor. This is why we try to deescalate conflics before they get out of hand, excersise control, etc.
As far as spirituallity; you don't need to be a spiritual person to be an ethical person. Plain and simple.

 

[jks9199]

I think it's already been answered much better than I can:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs.

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: “Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.” This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
...
“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.”


If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

 

[morph4me]

Although I like the quote I posted I will admit I was very hesitant about posting it because of the use of “spirituality” I have my thoughts on this and as I said they are on MT if any one cares to see them.

I agree with hpulley that we are humanizing predator here and that a predator is in an over-all sense simply a hunter. And I do feel that when you humanize it and you are talking a human predator preying on other humans you are talking more to a lack of morality than cowardice. Although I do not doubt in some it does originate in cowardice, but not all IMO.



I have a question here and it comes more from my dislike about discussions on things spiritual tied to MA than anything else. The original quote also mentioned compassion and honor promises as what separates a warrior form a predator and since I feel as far as humans it may be more a lack of compassion for your fellow man and a lack of any sense of honor that makes one a predator as opposed to a warrior and that when some one trained MA without any sense of compassion or honor that can lead to one being a predator. Would you or anyone feel that would also be the difference even more so than anything someone might call spirituality?

I definetly agree that a lack of compassion is one of the earmarks of a predator, as far as honor goes, the way that honor is defined and expressed can be a very subjective thing so, while it may be a factor, I'm not sure how much weight I would give it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I definetly agree that a lack of compassion is one of the earmarks of a predator, as far as honor goes, the way that honor is defined and expressed can be a very subjective thing so, while it may be a factor, I'm not sure how much weight I would give it.

Agreed, what one thinks of as honor is not necessarily what someone else would call honorable. It is both subjective and cultural IMO.

Just look at how Seppuku is viewed where one calls it honor another may call it cowardly.

 

[hkfuie]

Assuming you are using the term "predator" to mean a human predator and "warrior" to mean martial artist:

I think the predator looks for victims and the warrior only responds to a predator. There are all kinds of predators. There are people looking for fights even if they are only verbal.

Personally, I think the warrior should limit him/herself to what is necessary. And my personal opinion is that I would lose respect for anyone who took joy in harming someone else. I would do it if necessary, and I would be relieved to prevail, but there is no joy in it.

I attended a seminar where a man who until that time I had respected, bragged about how he ended the career of another martial artist in a sparring match. He said it as if we would all ooh and ah and admire him for it. I think this man was a predator who was masquerading as a warrior.

I categorize compassion and honor as spiritual values, so I completely agree with that quote. For me, spirituality has nothing to do with religion.

 

[morph4me]

I also assume that predator referred to a human predator, as for warrior, I didn't assume martial artist, I assumed anyone who acted as a warrior, martial artist or not.