What good is sport martial arts?

[Kong Soo Do]

If you are involved in martial arts competitions, what do you see as far as the;

• Positive aspects of competition?
• Negative aspects of competition?
• What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?
• What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?
• Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?
• What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?

Thank you.

 

[ETinCYQX]

If you are involved in martial arts competitions, what do you see as far as the;

• Positive aspects of competition?
  Conditioning, technique, something I refer to as "fight IQ", training live with multiple different partners, I enjoy it.
• Negative aspects of competition?
  Politics.
• What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?
  Depends. Could be a medal, could be a trophy, not something I ever paid much attention to.
• What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?
  Varied. I started at 7.
• Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?
  Again, varied. The competitions themselves are economical but travel occasionally is expensive.
• What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?
  Well, what do you consider Olympic style TKD? Like almost every martial art including boxing and MMA, points are scored, but it is full contact. Judo is also full contact but it's not a striking art.

Thank you.

I understand that some people train exclusively for "the streets" and have no interest in competition. I have yet to write off anyone who trains exclusively self defense and yet every other day someone says something like "competitive martial artists can't fight". Funny how that works.

 

[Manny]

If you are involved in martial arts competitions, what do you see as far as the;

• Positive aspects of competition?
• Negative aspects of competition?
• What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?
• What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?
• Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?
• What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?

Thank you.

1.-Positive aspect? it builds confidence on the person,
2.-Negative aspect? Politics, the winner is not always the best fighter/competitor.
3.-In my country the people fights in tournamnments for a piece of metal (not money) the tangible reward is something to show (trophy or medal) and know that day one was the best.
4.-I think the best age to star competing is 5-6 years old, in the peewe diviosn the blows are not as hard and the children take it as a funy game and tehn start to achieve confidence.
5.-The competition in my country is not expensive if you keep it locally or regionally, the competitions became expensive if you need to travel to another states or countries.
6.-I did some WTF style sparring competituion when I was a teen, now I am center and chair referee and belive the blows in the black belt divison are pretty hard.


Manny

Manny

 

[miguksaram]

Here are some articles I have written on what sport martial arts can teach you:

Learning about defeat
Not long ago, I was at a tournament with some students. One of our older students, who was 15, had been training tirelessly for this event. All his free time was spent at the school running his form over and over. Throughout the season, he had been finishing in fourth or fifth place. His goal was to finish in the top three. When it was his turn to compete, he went out there and gave it his all. It was probably the best I have ever seen him compete. When he stepped off the mat, he was pleased with his performance. However, when the judges read off his scores, it wasn’t enough to land him in the top three as he had hoped.

I instantly saw the disappointment on his face and began to walk over to him with the goal to console him on his loss. As I began to walk over, I was stopped by our head instructor. He wanted me to leave him be. Baffled at this I asked why. He explained that the student needs to let it sink in. It was best for him to console himself first. My instructor went on to explain that the student needs to understand that we do not always win even if we try our hardest. However, a trademark of someone who will become a champion is determined by what they do on their own after they have been defeated. By consoling him, he will only feel sorry for himself longer than he should or give excuses on why he did not win. He advised me to let the student make his way to us and when he informs us of his result, simply ask him what he needs to do in order to do better next time. This is a way to take his mind off of his defeat and help him set a new goal to help him win next time. I did as my instructor asked and allowed the student to just be. Eventually he came around and told us the result and, as I was advised, I asked him what he needs to do for next time. He came up with several items right away that he needed to fix. When I saw him the next day at class he was right back at drilling and fixing his mistakes.

It is natural to comfort those close to us, especially when they did not succeed in a goal that they were working very hard for. As a coach, you want your players to keep a healthy attitude after losing a match and go back to training harder for the next event. As a teacher, you want your students to study a bit harder if they fail a test. As a parent, you want your children to just try again if they do not succeed the first time. Some would call this tough love, though it is tougher on the coach, teacher or parent than the person they are trying to help. When all is said and done, sometimes it is best to just let them be and allow them to build their character by coping with the defeat on their own.

Compete to achieve

June 20th and 21st of 2008 marks the date for the 43rd Annual AKA Grand Nationals tournament, one of the oldest tournaments still running in the United States today. Adults and kids from all over North America and Europe will travel to Louisville, Kentucky, the site of the event, to participate in this annual martial arts competition and with it just around the corner I can’t help but recall debates about competition in the martial arts. Now there is always an ongoing debate somewhere on the internet about the pros and cons of having such events. More than not, the biggest complaint I hear over and over from the con side of the debate is that these types of events actually degrade martial arts or causes the martial arts to become watered down. I recently had the privilege to sit down with six young athletes who participate in sport martial art tournaments, just to see what drives them to do compete. (See upcoming September issue of Taekwondo Times for the article)

The more I spoke with them about competition, the more it reinforced my belief in how competition is very healthy and a much underrated part of the martial arts. That is not to say that if your school doesn’t do competitions, then your school is no good, far from it. What I am saying is that there are many good things that can come out of competition in the martial arts. What better way to practice the building blocks success such as perseverance, self confidence, self discipline and respect than to be put in a situation where you have to utilize those building blocks to help achieve victory?

And remember, victory is not determined on if you win or lose, it is determined on how you yourself have progressed as a person. When you see that you are able to better yourself in just one area in life, utilizing these building blocks, you begin to apply them in other areas of your life like your job or school or personal relationships. If you are like me, you are one of the many, many people who hate to do public speaking. To help overcome the nervousness and fear associated with it, I simply resort to looking at it like a competition. I practice what I need to present prior to the event so that it becomes second nature to me. If it is something that will be cause for discussion I think of all the points and counter points that will be brought up. Then, when the time comes, I just step into the ring and do my best. After all, if I can jump around and yell in front of strangers wearing those crazy pajamas we call uniforms, then stepping up in front of my peers in a business suit really isn’t that hard.

So if you have the opportunity, join in on a local event in your area, if nothing else just for the fun of it. Regardless if you win or lose, competition can always teach you something about yourself as a person, if you are willing to learn. Sometimes, it is not always what you would like to learn, but, it will always be something that will allow you to grow. "

 

[StudentCarl]

If you are involved in martial arts competitions, what do you see as far as the;

• Positive aspects of competition?

Dealing with pressure; having a goal/outcome/deadline to work toward; meeting other positive, competitive people; having to adapt to win; learning and being inspired by those more skilled and talented; learning that getting beaten and getting defeated are totally different things; the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat beats being a mushroom.

• Negative aspects of competition?

None, once you understand that it is a forge for growth that some people use more effectively than others. Poor sportsmanship, overzealous parents, etc. are people who have more to learn. Everyone has their own path.

• What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?

A sweaty uniform and pads, some new bruises, greater humility.

• What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?

5-6 years old. Interesting that you don't ask for an upper end.

• Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?

Once you factor in training, gear, travel, admission/registration, it's not cheap. Local tournaments are cheaper, but you get less value once you're past beginner. Like anything, there are good and bad out there.

• What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?

Full contact, forms.

Comment: It's interesting that you ask these questions to address the posted topic. The "good" is in the eye of the beholder: It depends on what you're looking for.

 

[Carol]

I don't compete, but from what I have seen in friends that do, there are definitely advantages.

One is fitness, staying in shape, getting in better shape. Whether one looks at that from a health standpoint or a defensive standpoint. Greater cardio fitness = greater testosterone in both men and women = greater ability to withstand pain.

Another is the friendship and camaraderie....including meeting new people and having more training partners to bang around with. You also get the perspective from people that are on different paths. Someone I have traveled with has said "I've sometimes learned more in hotel lobbies before or after the seminars than I have in the actual seminar". I bet the same can apply to competition as well.

Plus I think training motivates people to hit the mats and keep going in the arts.

Ultimately I think the main reason why people compete is because they enjoy doing it, and that's perhaps the best benefit of all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Positive aspects of competition?

Competitions require that you prepare for them by training harder and train with resisting opponents.
Competions allow you the opportunity to have matches with people from outside of your school.
They can be fun.

Negative aspects of competition?

Cost, mostly. And you get all of the same drama that occurs in other competitive sports.

What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?

Tangible rewards? Aside from those you mentioned, there is certainly a character building element, as well as increased confidence that comes from actually competing and not just sparring with all the usual suspects.

What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?

Seen kids as young as five or six compete.

Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?

Haven't competed for a while. If you stay local, they tend to be inexpensive. If you travel, it becomes expensive.

What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?

Full contact continuous with taekwondo.
Full contact, stop once a point is awarded with kumdo/kendo

Daniel

 

[KELLYG]

I competed in a tournament a couple of weeks ago, among local schools in our area. Our school has both sport TKD And traditional TKD. I am more into the art side than the sport side. Tournaments are something that I rarely do. I had a good time and did well. A couple of things that I observed while competing that I normally would not see in our school type setting.

I am uncomfortable in a public eye, much like public speaking, and was able to overcome this and still preform well.
It allowed me to compare my skill set against others that I do not train with regularly.
I got to meet some really cool people that are in the art.
I got a lot of surprised looks sparing, when the majority of my division were at least 20 years younger and lbs lighter and I could still keep up with them and not get totally spanked.
Since I normally train in an all adult class, it was nice to show the younger crowd that I do have a set of skills that I work hard to get them.
The pride on my instructors faces when I did better than they had expected.

So all and all it was a good experience. That does not mean that I am on the tournament trail but every now and again I'll get to go out and play.

 

[Namii]

I just recently competed in my first tournament. It was a local one, and I did weapon forms. I learned alot in the short minute on the mat. It challenged me to do the forms in front of a bunch of complete strangers. Im uncomfortable speaking/doing things in front of large groups. Just in that was a personal challenge and that helped me grow. Also meeting new people, and seeing what others are like in their arts. And when I get to sparring for TKD, it will be good to spar with people that arent in your class/from other schools/arts. Sparring with the same people over and over in class gets predictable as you learn their fighting style and personality. Of course also it was fun..(once the nerves calmed down)

 

[puunui]

I understand that some people train exclusively for "the streets" and have no interest in competition. I have yet to write off anyone who trains exclusively self defense and yet every other day someone says something like "competitive martial artists can't fight". Funny how that works.

Exactly. I don't know why self defense oriented practitioners are so opposed to competition oriented or even exercise or family oriented practitioners, since competition, exercise or family practitioners (the overwhelming majority of martial arts practitioners) have nothing against what self defense oriented practitioners do.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am uncomfortable in a public eye, much like public speaking, and was able to overcome this and still preform well.

I like this one. Of all the great on-topic replies, this one stood out. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[puunui]

Positive aspects of competition?

Many. Most of all, it is a great vehicle for self discovery.

Negative aspects of competition?

None.

What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?

Tangible increase in skill, ability, experience, knowledge, relationships, motivation to continue training, etc. Rewards are even greater when you "lose".

What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?

5 or 6 years old.

Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?

Used to be reasonable; national events now expensive; international (for national team members) free, or at least used to be.

What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?

Competition under the WTF Rules.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Exactly. I don't know why self defense oriented practitioners are so opposed to competition oriented or even exercise or family oriented practitioners, since competition, exercise or family practitioners (the overwhelming majority of martial arts practitioners) have nothing against what self defense oriented practitioners do.

I don't want to say paranoia, but it almost seems like a bit of an obsession with the worst-case.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't want to say paranoia, but it almost seems like a bit of an obsession with the worst-case.

Too be honest, I've seen it the other way around far more times. I don't know if it is a lack of self-esteem, a mis-perception or what. Fortunately many SD focused practitioners have publically stated that people take the arts for many reasons that are valid. Generally the biggest concern I see from my SD peers is the sports-only club advetising that they teach SD as a commercial gimmick. That is intellectual dishonesty and does a dis-service to the student.

If a martial art is a hobby only to a person, done to get into shape and off the couch then I say great! If it is for sport competitions only and gets them out from in front of the T.V. then I say great. And if someone is looking for a vehicle for personal protection and joins an appropriate school that actually covers SD, then I say great as well.

 

[puunui]

Generally the biggest concern I see from my SD peers is the sports-only club advetising that they teach SD as a commercial gimmick. That is intellectual dishonesty and does a dis-service to the student.

How many "sports only" clubs do you run into out there? Personally, I can think of only two, which cater towards elite athlete training, and frankly, the subject of "self defense" never comes up. Do you have an example of a "sports only" club, because frankly, I don't see too many out there, just the two I mentioned, both of which are run by former national team members.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Too be honest, I've seen it the other way around far more times. I don't know if it is a lack of self-esteem, a mis-perception or what. Fortunately many SD focused practitioners have publically stated that people take the arts for many reasons that are valid. Generally the biggest concern I see from my SD peers is the sports-only club advetising that they teach SD as a commercial gimmick. That is intellectual dishonesty and does a dis-service to the student.

If a martial art is a hobby only to a person, done to get into shape and off the couch then I say great! If it is for sport competitions only and gets them out from in front of the T.V. then I say great. And if someone is looking for a vehicle for personal protection and joins an appropriate school that actually covers SD, then I say great as well.

I would not call it a "hobby" to me and I have to admit your insinuating that grates on me slightly.

When I say I like to compete, what it means is I like to fight full contact with another student of a similar ability level. I don't see how that diminishes self-defense. Like literally every other WTF high color or black belt in the world, I know all the little tricks for controlling an attacker too. The wrist locks, the chokes, the sweeps and the armbars. So does puunui I'm sure.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I would not call it a "hobby" to me and I have to admit your insinuating that grates on me slightly.

That was not an insinuation. I wasn't even thinking about you when I typed it. Read the entire statment in context please, to some the martial arts ARE a hobby. It is something they do two days a week to get out of the house and active. To some, it is only for sport and the thrill of competition. To others it is a means of personal protection.

Why would you even think of taking that personally???

 

[ETinCYQX]

Let's see...Because I was quoted in the post, because you said exactly this

If it is for sport competition only and gets them out from in front of the TV

And because you've more or less dismissed everything but self defense training as just for fun. I didn't say "hey, I need a hobby" and start martial arts for a sport like a sedentary kid plays basketball or soccer. I started martial arts before my sixth birthday. But, whatever, I can be wrong.

Let's move on to something more useful to this discussion. Do your students train live? As in, randori/sparring/free practice/rolling/whatever you want to call it?

 

[puunui]

Read the entire statment in context please, to some the martial arts ARE a hobby. It is something they do two days a week to get out of the house and active. To some, it is only for sport and the thrill of competition. To others it is a means of personal protection.

You've also said that you can learn "self defense" at a single eight hour seminar.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Let's see...Because I was quoted in the post, because you said exactly this

If it is for sport competition only and gets them out from in front of the TV

And because you've more or less dismissed everything but self defense training as just for fun. I didn't say "hey, I need a hobby" and start martial arts for a sport like a sedentary kid plays basketball or soccer. I started martial arts before my sixth birthday. But, whatever, I can be wrong.

Let's move on to something more useful to this discussion. Do your students train live? As in, randori/sparring/free practice/rolling/whatever you want to call it?

Yes, I did quote you so that I could reply to the quote. But I was not singling you out as a hobbyist. That was a general statement of why many people train. I then went on to those that train for sport and SD. None of that was directed at you as an individual, nor did I say that any of them were wrong. If a person takes up the martial arts as a hobby to become active...how can that be wrong?

This is one of those times when the written word fails to convey the tone or meaning or is taken to mean something that it is not. So don't take it personally as it wasn't meant that way.

Do your students train live?

Yes. As I've mentioned in one of my other threads, we train scenario based. What this means is that we take a common situation and then train for a common altercation using that situation. For example, sometimes we train inside a vehicle (carjacking). Sometimes on a stairwell. In a hallway or alley. On pavement, asphalt and grass. Between vehicles or wall or trees. The starting position isn't always standing either. Sometimes we start from a definate position of disadvantage. One of my favorite is on the ground against a wall. Starting from a standing or strong position is fine, but 'what if' your sucker punched and your down and have to 'start' your defense from there? Well...let's train for it and see what our options are. I like dim light training. I like multiple attacker training.

Things of this nature not only make the training interesting, but it promotes and enhances our thought proccesses. For example, if you've never trained on the ground EVER (talking to anyone in general) and then you find yourself defending on the ground you are in unfamilar territory. But if you've trained to defend from the ground over and over then you aren't behind the 8 ball if/when it happens.

You've also said that you can learn "self defense" at a single eight hour seminar.

Yes, this is a fact. Darren Laur/Peter Boatman's edged weapon defense instructor's course is only 16 hours. The regular course (for line Officers) is only 8 hours. Refresher training was every 12 months but it was found that it could be back off to 18 months without issue. In otherwords, it was gross motor skill based and retained in long term memory.

WWII combatives as taught by William Fairbairn, Sykes, Pat O'Neill, Applegate etc was only around 8-24 hours (or as little as 8-16 depending on the source) but has been found to be retained in long term memory for decades and still viable by users even at an advanced age.

Now to be clear, none of it is magic. A person has to apply themselves to get some benefit. But the benefits remain for an incredibly long time simply because it was so simple to learn and so simple to remember.