Weapon Defense From The Left Hand

[MJS]

I know that anytime the subject of the opposite side comes up, people usually reply, "Why train the opposite side when there are other things to worry about?" Well, to each their own I suppose.

If we look at the weapon defense, the majority of attacks are done with the right hand. Aside from the forms, one being Form 6, which addresses the left side, do any of you take time to work on left side defense?

IMO, I think its a good idea, partially because I think that training defenses should consist of work outside of the forms. That would be like saying that you don't need to spar because you train forms.

 

[kidswarrior]

Yes, it is a good idea, Mike--we don't know the attacker won't be left handed. So, my students train both sides informally (only right side formally) until Green belt, then at Brown I require them to stop and make sure they're proficient on both sides. Until then, I may occasionally call an attack from the opposite side just to get them thinking (and to see they're not 'there' yet), but proficiencey takes time, patience and practice.

Good question, as too often our techniques are built on too many assumptions. :ultracool

 

[MJS]

Yes, it is a good idea, Mike--we don't know the attacker won't be left handed. So, my students train both sides informally (only right side formally) until Green belt, then at Brown I require them to stop and make sure they're proficient on both sides. Until then, I may occasionally call an attack from the opposite side just to get them thinking (and to see they're not 'there' yet), but proficiencey takes time, patience and practice.

Good question, as too often our techniques are built on too many assumptions. :ultracool

Great points! I know there have been discussions regarding doing a right side tech. lefty, and there have been mixed thoughts on it. You're right though...it does make you think. Likewise, my instructor has the both sides requirement at Green Belt.

 

[14 Kempo]

I know that anytime the subject of the opposite side comes up, people usually reply, "Why train the opposite side when there are other things to worry about?" Well, to each their own I suppose.

If we look at the weapon defense, the majority of attacks are done with the right hand. Aside from the forms, one being Form 6, which addresses the left side, do any of you take time to work on left side defense?

IMO, I think its a good idea, partially because I think that training defenses should consist of work outside of the forms. That would be like saying that you don't need to spar because you train forms.

Personally, I train all techniques (punch, kick, grabs, knife and club) and forms both right and left-handed. The forms can be tough. Here's something I do at times with a higher ranked student, it can be fun and challenging ... I have my student do a form, I am directly in front of them and mirror them ... they doing the form in the normal, right-handed manner and me doing the form left-handed. This is a great drill for mr and it also teaches my student to focus.

 

[MJS]

Personally, I train all techniques (punch, kick, grabs, knife and club) and forms both right and left-handed. The forms can be tough. Here's something I do at times with a higher ranked student, it can be fun and challenging ... I have my student do a form, I am directly in front of them and mirror them ... they doing the form in the normal, right-handed manner and me doing the form left-handed. This is a great drill for mr and it also teaches my student to focus.

I totally agree with the forms. Thats not something I practice. I made a ref. to Form 6 in the EPAK system because the moves are done both right and left side. As far as having the students mirror me, that is something I did with the techniques. I'd stand IFO them and perform the tech on my left. I found at times it was easier for them to see what I was doing. Seemed to work, so there are a number of techs. I can do lefty.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I totally agree with the forms. Thats not something I practice. I made a ref. to Form 6 in the EPAK system because the moves are done both right and left side. As far as having the students mirror me, that is something I did with the techniques. I'd stand IFO them and perform the tech on my left. I found at times it was easier for them to see what I was doing. Seemed to work, so there are a number of techs. I can do lefty.

Mike stop trying to make sense of things. Everyone knows that all bad guys are right-handed. It's the cosmic law of the universe.

 

[KempoGuy06]

i practice my stuff from both sides. you never know which hand the attacker will use and not everybody is right handed myself included. I think its a good idea and my instructor will have an all left side class every now and then

B

 

[tellner]

It's much easier to learn things on one side and then learn on the other than to start off doing both. That's just the way human brains seem to be wired. So I'd say "Learn on one side, then practice on both."

 

[John Bishop]

Mike stop trying to make sense of things. Everyone knows that all bad guys are right-handed. It's the cosmic law of the universe.

Actually, your not far off. It is estimated that 97% of the general population is right handed. So why would someone want to spend 50% of their time training for 3% of the population?
I can't speak for the kenpo systems, but from looking at Kajukenbo I can see that many of our techniques would work equally well without modification, against a left handed attack.
Most of the techniques attack muscles, joints, limbs, and the groin. Most of these targets are accessible whether the attack is right handed or left. A strike to the bicep of a right handed attacker, would work just as well if it was done to the tricep of a left handed attacker. An outward wrist lock on a right handed attacker, is easily converted to a armbar on a left handed attacker.
So before I start looking at mirroring the techniques on the opposite side, I see how it works on the right side against a left hand attack.

If you try this, you may find that your seniors who created the techniques may have used quite a bit of insight into whether the defense would be usable against both right hand and left hand attacks.

 

[Blindside]

I don't mirror image kenpo techniques, I don't really see the point. My already existing vocabulary of motion is big enough to encompass left sided punches and grabs. For weapons, I probably train 25% of my time against double or left sided weapons. Not that I expect to run into a double knife wielder, but it is designed to develop awareness of both of the opponents hands. (My weapons training isn't kenpo, its kali.)

Lamont

 

[kidswarrior]

Actually, your not far off. It is estimated that 97% of the general population is right handed. So why would someone want to spend 50% of their time training for 3% of the population?
I can't speak for the kenpo systems, but from looking at Kajukenbo I can see that many of our techniques would work equally well without modification, against a left handed attack.
Most of the techniques attack muscles, joints, limbs, and the groin. Most of these targets are accessible whether the attack is right handed or left. A strike to the bicep of a right handed attacker, would work just as well if it was done to the tricep of a left handed attacker. An outward wrist lock on a right handed attacker, is easily converted to a armbar on a left handed attacker.
So before I start looking at mirroring the techniques on the opposite side, I see how it works on the right side against a left hand attack.

If you try this, you may find that your seniors who created the techniques may have used quite a bit of insight into whether the defense would be usable against both right hand and left hand attacks.

Excellent points, Prof Bishop. If I could just play devil's advocate for a moment or two?

Re: only 3% of pop. being left handed, I'm wondering if that would apply to the trouble-maker population equally. The reason I bring this up is, I've worked with kids on probation for almost 20 years :erg: and it seems to me maybe more like 15-18% have been left handed--or ambidextrous. Don't know if it's a processing mix up that maybe is tied to their failure in school (which in turn can't do much for their success in life--so, I get them ). Anyway, my point is in self defense we may be dealing with a different sub-group than the gen'l pop?

Re: techniques working well regardless of which side he attacks with: thanks for illuminating some of the possibilities. Very instructive. Have actually seen some of this in action when we do the gauntlet, for example, and I call a technique to be used by the defender moving down the line, regardless of the attack. Lots of fun, and very eye-opening in the ways you describe. Still, tho, the technique may plan for a step away from a weapon, that if used against reverse side attack results in a step into the weapon. Now at your level, the MAist would undoubtedly automatically recover. Maybe even at my level. But at purple or blue belt, maybe not.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Am always looking for the best possible principles and techniques to continue to teach/refine, even though as you said, it's amazing what the seniors built in already.

 

[Flying Crane]

Excellent points, Prof Bishop. If I could just play devil's advocate for a moment or two?

Re: only 3% of pop. being left handed, I'm wondering if that would apply to the trouble-maker population equally. The reason I bring this up is, I've worked with kids on probation for almost 20 years :erg: and it seems to me maybe more like 15-18% have been left handed--or ambidextrous. Don't know if it's a processing mix up that maybe is tied to their failure in school (which in turn can't do much for their success in life--so, I get them ). Anyway, my point is in self defense we may be dealing with a different sub-group than the gen'l pop?

Re: techniques working well regardless of which side he attacks with: thanks for illuminating some of the possibilities. Very instructive. Have actually seen some of this in action when we do the gauntlet, for example, and I call a technique to be used by the defender moving down the line, regardless of the attack. Lots of fun, and very eye-opening in the ways you describe. Still, tho, the technique may plan for a step away from a weapon, that if used against reverse side attack results in a step into the weapon. Now at your level, the MAist would undoubtedly automatically recover. Maybe even at my level. But at purple or blue belt, maybe not.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Am always looking for the best possible principles and techniques to continue to teach/refine, even though as you said, it's amazing what the seniors built in already.

I'll add a thought to this, and hope this thread doesn't get derailed into another full-scale debate about whether or not we should practice all our techs on both sides.

While the techs as taught may work against a right or left attack with little or no modification, what keeps jumping into my mind is the idea that you might be injured or handicapped in some other way that prevents you from working your techs in the way they are taught. Maybe you are holding your baby in your arms, or maybe you are up against a wall that prevents you from moving in a way that you want to, for example. You might be forced to respond in a way that is awkward and not in line with how the techs are taught. But if you practice for both possibilities, you develop the physical skills to respond appropriately, no matter what.

I know, the techs are supposed to be lessons about what is possible, and not used by rote in an actual fight. We are supposed to be able to respond spontaneously and effectively, no matter what comes at us. And while true ambidexterity may be impossible, I believe it is possible to develop a useful level of ambidexterity, and that makes everything easier.

So in getting back to the original post, I would say definitely yes, train against a lefty weapon attack. Maybe you can get your regular techs to work against it, but maybe you should also explore your techs in mirror image.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Actually, your not far off. It is estimated that 97% of the general population is right handed. So why would someone want to spend 50% of their time training for 3% of the population?
I can't speak for the kenpo systems, but from looking at Kajukenbo I can see that many of our techniques would work equally well without modification, against a left handed attack.
Most of the techniques attack muscles, joints, limbs, and the groin. Most of these targets are accessible whether the attack is right handed or left. A strike to the bicep of a right handed attacker, would work just as well if it was done to the tricep of a left handed attacker. An outward wrist lock on a right handed attacker, is easily converted to a armbar on a left handed attacker.
So before I start looking at mirroring the techniques on the opposite side, I see how it works on the right side against a left hand attack.

If you try this, you may find that your seniors who created the techniques may have used quite a bit of insight into whether the defense would be usable against both right hand and left hand attacks.

In general I agree, most techniques I know and practice work equally well with a left or right handed opponent. We do work both sides, not so much because an attacker might be a lefty but to give ourselves more options if we need them.

By the way, as a member of the left-handed element of the community, I think you'll find that about 15% of people are left handed. Doesn't matter that much if your primary targets are the head or torso, though.

 

[John Bishop]

Excellent points, Prof Bishop. If I could just play devil's advocate for a moment or two?

Re: only 3% of pop. being left handed, I'm wondering if that would apply to the trouble-maker population equally. The reason I bring this up is, I've worked with kids on probation for almost 20 years :erg: and it seems to me maybe more like 15-18% have been left handed--or ambidextrous. Don't know if it's a processing mix up that maybe is tied to their failure in school (which in turn can't do much for their success in life--so, I get them ). Anyway, my point is in self defense we may be dealing with a different sub-group than the gen'l pop?

Re: techniques working well regardless of which side he attacks with: thanks for illuminating some of the possibilities. Very instructive. Have actually seen some of this in action when we do the gauntlet, for example, and I call a technique to be used by the defender moving down the line, regardless of the attack. Lots of fun, and very eye-opening in the ways you describe. Still, tho, the technique may plan for a step away from a weapon, that if used against reverse side attack results in a step into the weapon. Now at your level, the MAist would undoubtedly automatically recover. Maybe even at my level. But at purple or blue belt, maybe not.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Am always looking for the best possible principles and techniques to continue to teach/refine, even though as you said, it's amazing what the seniors built in already.

Well, I don't know if lefties have a stronger proclivity towards anti-social behavior. But I doubt they do.
And of course I'm not saying all techniques will or should work against both right and left handed attackers. But, at least in my system, a lot will. I'm just questioning the need to spend a equal amount of time working your techniques against a left handed attacker.
I once had a instructor tell me that; "you will never run out of techniques to teach, if you teach every technique on the left side too." At first this sounded like a good idea. But as time went on, it seemed like nothing more then a way to pad one's curriculum.

There's only so much training time a martial artist has. So, I personally believe that the most time should be spent on the most likely scenarios. But, I guess someone else could take the philosophy that the most dangerous attack one could face would be a attacker armed with a gun. And in turn, he would prefer to spend the majority of his training time working on gun techniques.

 

[MJS]

OK, heres my question, and perhaps its just because I'm not reading things right here.

Assume opponent A swings a club at us. It is in his right hand, so the strike will be coming to the left side of our body. We perform technique 1, which is for a right hand attack.

Opponent A has a club in his left hand. He swings at the right side of our body. Now, we can still do technique 1, but unless I'm missing something, isn't the tech. going to have to be done lefty? I'm not saying to change the tech. as in the moves, just the way its done. IE: If we stepped up with our right leg for the right hand attack, we step with the left for the left side attack.

 

[Blindside]

OK, heres my question, and perhaps its just because I'm not reading things right here.

Assume opponent A swings a club at us. It is in his right hand, so the strike will be coming to the left side of our body. We perform technique 1, which is for a right hand attack.

Opponent A has a club in his left hand. He swings at the right side of our body. Now, we can still do technique 1, but unless I'm missing something, isn't the tech. going to have to be done lefty? I'm not saying to change the tech. as in the moves, just the way its done. IE: If we stepped up with our right leg for the right hand attack, we step with the left for the left side attack.

If your only reference is one technique then sure, but don't you have a technique for a right hand backhand slash? Use that as your entry, graft from there, the attack angle is the same.

Lamont

 

[Ceicei]

Also consider the possibility that some attackers are able to switch hands quickly with their weapon (such as with knives) to maximize their attack and cause confusion. Fortunately, this is not as common as those who prefer to fight with their dominant hand. There are also a few I have met who will one-hand grapple with their dominant hand (front) and hold a knife with their non-dominant hand (back). I hope I will never have to tangle with any of them.

- Ceicei

 

[LawDog]

I believe that a person should learn both the right & left side for any given technique.
*In boxing fighters are taught techniques from one side because they are only fighting one opponent,
*In many two vs one street type situations a person cannot keep the same side forward toward both of his opponents at the same time,
*Many weapons techniques will use impacting / cutting swings that come in from both the right and left side of your center line,
*Some weapons systems will fight with the strong side forward, the weapon being held in the forward hand,
*Physical developement - when training with one side forward the muscle groups located on the forward side are not used / developed in the same way as the same muscle groups located on the rear side.
irate5: