"Volt," problems still around...

[billc]

Another article that looks at the GM Volt and why it is such a bad buy...

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/26/cbo-electric-vehicles-a-loser-that-allow-for-more-pollution/

Environment — Apart from the concerns above, the manufacture of these batteries — and especially their disposal — will create massive environmental problems. Rare-earth elements necessary to their production are rare indeed in the US, which means we will have to increase our dependence on Asia for those commodities. The manufacture of battery arrays is notoriously bad for the environment, and we’re now talking about multiplying the need per car. Disposal is even worse; it will make the environment more toxic rather than less, and the long-term prospects for manufacturing aren’t good unless we find greater reserves of these elements.

• Sustained value — There isn’t any in the Volt. For the sticker price — even with the subsidies — it’s underpowered and undersized compared to the rest of the market. Thanks to a massive battery replacement cost at somewhere around the 8-year mark, there won’t be any trade-in or resale value for the car, either, which is why lessees are highly unlikely to buy the car from GM at the end of the two-year lease. Without that battery replacement, the Volt becomes an underpowered, undersized, and overly expensive internal-combustion vehicle.
  
• Energy — Much is made of the cleanliness of the plug-in chargeability, especially in ads for the Volt and the Nissan Leaf. But about half the energy to recharge the battery comes from coal, which is the main contributor to American electrical production. The internal-combustion engines in most cars are more efficient at using gasoline, with the ability to control emissions better, too. Thanks to a raft of new EPA regulations on coal, electricity production will be declining since other technologies aren’t ready to take its place in terms of mass-production capability, which means that the lengthy recharge will end up costing consumers more than a trip to the gas station — and that gets more pronounced the more vehicles we move away from gasoline and onto an already-limited electrical grid.
  

 

[Steve]

I started to post a response, but before I do, I'd like to know what you think, Bill. If the point is that a Volt isn't a great design, I'd agree with you. It manages to pack all of the cons of a gas engine and an electric drivetrain into one car without many of the of pros.

Do you have another point? What conclusions are you drawing from the article?

 

[Makalakumu]

A good friend of mine commuted with a gas powered sedan and spent 250 dollars a month on gas. She traded it in for an electric version and plugs it in every night. Electric bill goes up 50 dollars.

 

[Empty Hands]

Do you have another point? What conclusions are you drawing from the article?

Liberals are bad.

 

[Rich Parsons]

All batteries will have this problem.

Also this is part of the reason why the EV1 was leased and not sold to control the disposal of the batteries.

I am glad it is still just a GM and Volt issue and any hybrid or Toyota Prius issue.

 

[Steve]

This is a conversation that we've already had several times on this forum. I could understand if it was a new poster who wasn't involved in previous iterations of the same thread, but that isn't the case here.

Once again, I'm interested in the subject, but I'm not going to put any energy into rehashing the same old stuff. I'm very curious to see whether billcihak has anything to contribute or if he's simply stirring the pot with another hit and run, copy/paste hack job from an unabashedly biased, rightwing media outlet.

Edit: just one question regarding the batteries... do the sanctimonious, smug, right wing pundits who are concerned about Li-Ion battery disposal opt not to use cell phones, laptops or any of the other devices that use the same battery technology? That's kind of like a vegan wearing leather shoes, isn't it?

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: Mind reader . Watched one of these racing at the Festival of Power - very weird with there being no engine noise

 

[arnisador]

Research on this must continue--but it's tough. Long-lasting batteries tend to be heavy batteries. Forget 'Plastics'--the future is in 'Batteries'.

 

[Carol]

Liberals are bad.

Yup. Electric/hybrid drivers are less likely to be Republican voters. They must be scorned.

 

[frank raud]

This is a conversation that we've already had several times on this forum. I could understand if it was a new poster who wasn't involved in previous iterations of the same thread, but that isn't the case here.

Once again, I'm interested in the subject, but I'm not going to put any energy into rehashing the same old stuff. I'm very curious to see whether billcihak has anything to contribute or if he's simply stirring the pot with another hit and run, copy/paste hack job from an unabashedly biased, rightwing media outlet.

Edit: just one question regarding the batteries... do the sanctimonious, smug, right wing pundits who are concerned about Li-Ion battery disposal opt not to use cell phones, laptops or any of the other devices that use the same battery technology? That's kind of like a vegan wearing leather shoes, isn't it?

Steve, to be fair, I don't think most people are concerned with resale value when they buy a cell phone or laptop. It is a valid concern with a car, unless you intend to drive it into the ground.

 

[CanuckMA]

Steve, to be fair, I don't think most people are concerned with resale value when they buy a cell phone or laptop. It is a valid concern with a car, unless you intend to drive it into the ground.

It's not about resale value. Critics use the issue of manufacturing and disposal of the batteries to show how horrible and not green the Volt is. Likely write those criticism are written on devices that use the same battery technology. Current battery technology sucks. For automotive purposes, it is at the start of the usability scale. That is not a reason to NOT produce electric cars, it is the reason TO do it. Electric car sales will provide more incentives to research battery technology.

 

[Steve]

Steve, to be fair, I don't think most people are concerned with resale value when they buy a cell phone or laptop. It is a valid concern with a car, unless you intend to drive it into the ground.

I'm talking about the specific and often repeated concern about disposal of the batteries and how "bad" they are.

But I was really talking about the hit and run that billcihak tends to do, and that this is a rehash of several other threads.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

Okay, guys. I can't take it. There's so much fail in the few snippets posted in the OP, they just have to be addressed. I won't read the entire article and give the site another hit, but I'll just hit on the few points billcihak quoted:

Environment — Apart from the concerns above, the manufacture of these batteries — and especially their disposal — will create massive environmental problems. Rare-earth elements necessary to their production are rare indeed in the US, which means we will have to increase our dependence on Asia for those commodities. The manufacture of battery arrays is notoriously bad for the environment, and we’re now talking about multiplying the need per car. Disposal is even worse; it will make the environment more toxic rather than less, and the long-term prospects for manufacturing aren’t good unless we find greater reserves of these elements

Modern Lithium Ion batteries don't use the exceedingly expensive metals that early batteries did (cobalt). The type of batteries used in the modern EV (and laptops, cell phones, hearing aids, cordless drills and everything else) are lithium iron phosphate batteries, which are not hazardous waste and are approved for landfill disposal. Yup. Here's a plain language article that discusses the differences between lithium ion batteries using cobalt and the advantages of the modern lithium rechargeable battery.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.co...thium-iron-battery-better-lithium-ion-battery

This isn't to say that things can't be improved. But the idea that modern lithium batteries are hazardous waste is a blatant falsehood.

Sustained value — There isn’t any in the Volt. For the sticker price — even with the subsidies — it’s underpowered and undersized compared to the rest of the market. Thanks to a massive battery replacement cost at somewhere around the 8-year mark, there won’t be any trade-in or resale value for the car, either, which is why lessees are highly unlikely to buy the car from GM at the end of the two-year lease. Without that battery replacement, the Volt becomes an underpowered, undersized, and overly expensive internal-combustion vehicle.

This might be true for the Volt. I don't know. The Volt is in a funny place and truthfully, the niche that these cars are being sold to is the commuter car typically bought specifically to drive into the ground. But with that said, resale values are actually holding steady: http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissan-leaf-and-chevy-volt-resale-values-holding-strong-46711.html

Will they stay there? Hard to say. For the purposes of this thread though, it's enough to point out that the assertion that the Volt won't have strong resale value is largely baseless wishful thinking of someone with an obvious bias.

My personal opinion is that the Volt will become a niche collectable, like the DeLorean. And truthfully, I don't expect that the early EVs will resell all that well, either, but I think it will have more to do with advances in technology. I just think that in 4 or 5 years, we'll be seeing significant advances. Look at the difference between a cell phone now and one of just 10 years ago.

But, on that note, we've had conversations in the past, and it may very well be that when practical minded folks like Bill Mattocks look for their next low cost car, it could be an EV, and the total cost of ownership for a low cost, early model EV might be better than even a late model Geo Metro.

Energy — Much is made of the cleanliness of the plug-in chargeability, especially in ads for the Volt and the Nissan Leaf. But about half the energy to recharge the battery comes from coal, which is the main contributor to American electrical production.

Couple of points I've mentioned several times on this subject.

First, that coal powered energy is about 99% made in America.
Second, that same coal powered energy is used to refine the oil that makes the gas.

The internal-combustion engines in most cars are more efficient at using gasoline, with the ability to control emissions better, too.

An EV emits zero emissions. There's no exhaust. This is a ridiculous statement.

Thanks to a raft of new EPA regulations on coal, electricity production will be declining since other technologies aren’t ready to take its place in terms of mass-production capability, which means that the lengthy recharge will end up costing consumers more than a trip to the gas station — and that gets more pronounced the more vehicles we move away from gasoline and onto an already-limited electrical grid.

There is plenty of electricity on the "grid." And the creation of better storage and creative uses of EVs to feed electricity back to a grid when not used to move the car are making other forms of electricity viable.

Once again, we've had these conversations before. Electricity is regulated. As the price for gas fluctuates wildly, I have continued to pay $.11/kwh for my electricity. I can budget for it. It costs me between $30 and $40 per month to run my car, depending upon how many miles I drive.

The electricity in Washington uses almost zero coal and is largely hydroelectric or nuclear. We also have wind and geothermal.

Ultimately, there are legitimate downsides to EVs, but I can't understand why genuine, American loving conservatives don't at least acknowledge the tremendous advantages of breaking the monopoly that Big Oil has over us, and of weaning ourselves off of our dependence on foreign energy. It genuinely baffles me.

 

[cdunn]

That is not a reason to NOT produce electric cars, it is the reason TO do it. Electric car sales will provide more incentives to research battery technology.

Quote for emphasis.

 

[Sukerkin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19733430

Another Lotus chassis playing host to electricy goodness

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah but nothing can beat the beauty of the electric car they MADE on Top Gear

 

[Steve]

That's awesome. I'd drive that car, Xue Sheng. I might raise the back end a little bit, though.

And, in case anyone missed it, the article billcihak posted was completely, absolutely wrong in every way.

Frank Raud, it got a little buried in my post above, but concerns about resale values are thus far unfounded:

Contrary to early fears that their resale value might not hold a candle to nearest-comparable gasoline cars, this appears to be the case, according to the June NADA Official Used Car Guide

How good are the resale values? Try 95 percent of the tax-credit-adjusted sticker for the 2011 Leaf, and 90 percent for the 2011 Volt.


NADA pegs the 2011 Leaf’s average trade-in value at $23,975. When factoring in the full federal tax credit of $7,500, the Leaf’s net sticker price was figured to be $25,280.


A nearly as good story holds true for the gas-electric Volt. A 2011 Volt has an average trade-in value of $29,325, and when subtracting the $7,500 federal tax credit, its net sticker would have been $32,780.

That's pretty damned solid for a car, considering that the average depreciation of a car is about 15% per year as a rule of thumb.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's awesome. I'd drive that car, Xue Sheng. I might raise the back end a little bit, though. .

This may change your mind

 

[Steve]

Okay. That's hilarious. I've never actually seen the show.