Utilizing Fa Jing

[zen_hydra]

In some of the forms that I have learned in my studies I have found that fa jing striking is predominant. My first exposure to fa jing, was when I was learning snake pakua, from the animal pakua forms. Almost every snake pakua strike had an exaggerated coiling motion. This was very difficult for me to get used to (especially with kicking). I have long been a subscriber to turning my body into a strike, but to go through an almost circular motion with every strike seemed to burden me down. One night after practicing the fa jing striking in my brothers swimming pool (where I could be more mindful of what exactly my body was doing) I seemed to finally "get it," the snap and power from my blows was tremendous. The downside of this is that practicing fa jing strikes without a surface to impact on can seriously overstress ones joints. I am know working on trying to incorporate fa jing power into all my strikes by internalizing the coiling motions. I have had some success, but am still working on trying to make it second nature. What kind of fa jing / coiling power experiences have you people had? I am very interested in finding out other power developing techniques.

 

[zen_hydra]

Do the Yiliquan practitioners out there use coiling power in there strikes? I know that your school uses elements out of Pakua, Hsing Yi, and Taichi. I personally only have exposure to Pakua, out of those three styles, so I am unfamiliar with most of the techniques from the other two. I know that Hsing Yi is supposed to generate very powerful blows. How exactly is that accomplished? Is fa jing involved? I know that Hsing Yi is considered an internal style, even though it is very linear and aggressive, so is there subtle circular motion to build power for striking?

 

[Matt Stone]

In the beginning, coiling isn't emphasized as much as getting "body actions" down... correct rotation or shifting of the hips, etc.

After "basic training" is over, and Xingyiquan study begins, developing coiling becomes an issue. When the student moves on to study Taijquan, and then Baguazhang, it is even more highly emphasized.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[ECYili]

I'm pretty much trying to do the same thing you're doing Zen. I've been doing the coils that are in the 3 internals for some time and developed a decent amount of power but now I'm really focusing on the chan ssu jin and developing fa jing. In Yili we have silk reeling exercises, starting with basic coils that develop into more advanced multiple coils.

I"ve been working on it for awhile and I'm starting to feel it seep into all my movements. My movements feel more efficiant, stronger and smoother. The internal part is coming along, as with any of the internal arts it just takes time, dedication, daily practice and patients.

Dan

 

[yilisifu]

When the coiling actions are first taught, they are rather large and obvious. This is also true of the more fundamental body movements (mechanics).
As one progresses and continues to practice and improve, these movements become smaller and smaller until they are ultimately internalized completely.
Additionally, there are "internal" movements which have to be felt; they cannot truly be demonstrated because they are inside...this makes it a real challenge to learn. Those who train hard and STUDY hard as well will succeed. Those who want it all handed to them on a platter or spoon-fed, won't.

 

[chufeng]

Coiling?

Can I take a 24 foot piece of wire and make a six inch antenna?

The same holds true in CMA...but you have to start with the long wire first and slowly work it down to a point...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[East Winds]

ECYili,

Interesting that you practise Silk Reeling in Yili and yet practise Yang style rather than Chen style Taiji?

Incidentally, traditional Yang Family taijiquan is full of Fa Jing, its just not as obvious as in other styles.

 

[ECYili]

Yes you are right, Yang style is full of fa jing. That's where a good teacher comes in to show you were and how to develope and use it.

It doesn't seem unusual to me that I practice silk reeling with Yang style rather than Chen. That's how I've been doing it from the beginning so it doesn't seem odd. I know Chen is heavy on it and is more obvious with it. I'm not sure on your confusion about it so if you can let me know I would be more than interested in hearing it.

Dan

 

[East Winds]

ECYili,

Absolutely nothing wrong with what your doing. It's just that Chan Si Gong is such an integral part of Chen style it seemed strange to divorce it from that discipline. Or do you also practise Chen?

Regards

 

[ECYili]

No we don't practice Chen but we do have an advanced tai ji set that our Sifu learned over in China that combines mostly Yang and Sun but has some Chen in it as well.

I always thought that chan ssu jin was intergral part of any tai ji style. Can't remember for sure if it was in Chen Man Ch'ing's 13 Treatises or if it was in the Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan by Jou, Tsung Hwa (I'm so horrible in remembering where I read stuff) where they talked abit about silk reeeling. Both books are mainly about Yang style.

Dan

 

[Taiji fan]

I always thought that chan ssu jin was intergral part of any tai ji style.

probably because in most texts, taiji's method of practice is liken to 'reeling silk from a cocoon', which is not exactly the same as the silk reeling exercises which can be used as stand alone exercises, but have the same underlying manner of practice.

Are you practising the competition combined form? How do you find the change in frame and pace throughout the styles

 

[ECYili]

I'm not sure if the form we practice is the compitition one or not. I know the original one we practiced had a combination of all 5 major family styles. I find the pacing and difference in frame very beneficial. It's a bit to get used to but I enjoy it. I like the differences in how each style issues power, some are more horizontal strength and some are more vertical strength. All are good tools to have in your bag for when you need it.

I would be most greatful if you could give me any information or point out any texts that would more clearly define the differences between tai ji practics methods and the stand alone ones you mentioned. Yili does have stand alone exercises as well, which I was refereing to at the beginning of the thread.

 

[yilisifu]

Actually, the advanced set we practice combined Yang and Sun, but it is not one I learned in China. I developed it myself and added to it Yili's methods of footwork and body shifting.

 

[Matt Stone]

I am learning it right now. I have learned the first 3/4s of the first half to a point that I can almost remember it. It is a pain to get, but there are some really snazzy spots in it.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Combative applications are much easier to see and apply. Try it. You'll like it!

 

[Taiji fan]

ECYili....I will have to work on that one for you.......I am as poor at remembering sources myself....the Chan Si gong exercises can be practised independently like a bog standard qigong set. In the taiji form the reference to reeling silk goes something like.......let the form be without breaks or holes or interuptions, the movemnt should be as if reeling silk from a coocoon......sorry not word perfect. Chen style does seem to have a monoply on chan si gong but I do know that my teacher who is a Yang stylist does meet up with the Chen family when they are in the UK for some silk reeling work.

I find the pacing and difference in frame very beneficial. It's a bit to get used to but I enjoy it. I like the differences in how each style issues power, some are more horizontal strength and some are more vertical strength. All are good tools to have in your bag for when you need it.

I like the quicker pace of Sun and the xingyi stepping, it does give you quite a different experience from the more stable and large posture of Yang, also with the training method of yang being so different. An interesting combination......have you ever experienced Wu style taiji?

Yiliquan...snazzy spots? such as? Any kicks in this form?

 

[yilisifu]

It has the "Kick with Toe", "Kick with Heel", "Turn and Sweep Lotus" kicks and "Kick to Side." Nothing real exotic.....but the angles at which it moves allow you to see combative application easily and to apply them with equal ease.

 

[ECYili]

Since Yili encompases(sp) Xing-Yi, Taiji and Ba Gua it wasn't to hard to get the Sun postures. The Xing Yi that we practice is very close to what Sun Lu Tang practiced so the frames weren't that much of a departure. Like you said though it's the combination of the two.

I haven't done Wu style before but I have seen it demonstrated. Very interesting stuff, I would like to learn more about it. There isn't anyone around my neck of the woods that practices it thought, none that I"m aware of.

 

[chufeng]

Those are the obvious kicks...there are, of course, many implies kicks, as well.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
Yiliquan...snazzy spots? such as? Any kicks in this form?

I have a thing for neck breaks, joint breaks, and things that go beyond merely effective and into punishingly painful seemingly for enjoyment-of-inflicting-pain's sake. What can I say? I'm weird.

I was intrigued by the neckbreak I thought I saw in Mustang Ruffles Its Mane, and the nasty choke in Draw Bow to Shoot Tiger.

Anyway, while working on the form, Chufeng and I eventually took a break from form work to work on some chokes and whatnot. We played with the choke mentioned above, as well as some other things from the form that resulted in Chufeng propelling my body into the pavement repeatedly (admittedly, at my request... I think he called me some names for being silly enough to ask for it again and again).

I did manage to make the Monkey's Face mentioned in the Pa Kua Rules thread somewhere, though!

Its always a nice feeling to get your *** kicked by a guy with one fake knee and a limp! I do what I can to help the elderly feel better about themselves!

Had that nasty swimmy feeling in my head most of the rest of the day... Chufeng has some nasty chokes in his arsenal, and I'm damn glad I have the opportunity to learn from him. Good stuff, good stuff... Looking forward to next weekend already!

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: : asian: