Use of force

[Shogun]

:The amount of force used was reasonable to affect the lawful purpose intended:

this is the last part of "necessary" as defined by the revised code of washington.

How do you think Bujinkan budotaijutsu stacks up as "law friendly" at a recent seminar, we learned stuff that would get us 15-life if we used it.

 

[Cryozombie]

:The amount of force used was reasonable to affect the lawful purpose intended:

this is the last part of "necessary" as defined by the revised code of washington.

How do you think Bujinkan budotaijutsu stacks up as "law friendly" at a recent seminar, we learned stuff that would get us 15-life if we used it.

My take is, If you execute a technique that is proper to the situation, and have good legal council, no worries. I am also a firm believer in Ed Martin's philosophy of keeping your techniques hidden, so that bystanders *See* the other guy attack and hurt *Himself*

Sounds much better for a witness to say "The Big guy attacked him, and he cowered, and the big guy ran into his elbow while he was all huddled up"

than

"The big guy attacked him, and he did this crazy attack with his elbow and messed the big guy up!"

 

[shane23ss]

This is an interesting topic to me. Where I'm from the law states "enough force used to stop the attack". This means once the attack has stopped, the defense must stop. Kind of weird to me. If some one attacks you with no weapons, you must defend yourself just to the point of no more attack, but if some one comes into my house without being invited (ie. breaking and entering), I can kill them with a gun. But to my understanding, the law is completely different on this issue from state to state.

 

[koga ha]

This is an interesting topic to me. Where I'm from the law states "enough force used to stop the attack". This means once the attack has stopped, the defense must stop. Kind of weird to me. If some one attacks you with no weapons, you must defend yourself just to the point of no more attack, but if some one comes into my house without being invited (ie. breaking and entering), I can kill them with a gun. But to my understanding, the law is completely different on this issue from state to state.

since we are trained individuals we have the discipline to stop. now, if you want to continue and really knock the crap out of someone because they wrinkled your shirt in the process be prepared for the possibility of defending yourself in court.

"your honor, the man stopped, but i felt that i needed to break both this legs and a couple ribs...oh, i didn't know his nose was broke too..."

i'm being facetious, but you know what i mean.

 

[Shogun]

Good posts guys.
see, the thing is, I have practiced with Karate and Bujinkan guys quite a bit (Booj for 2 years) so many techniques has the potential to cripple. In a situation where you cant control your strength as well as in the dojo, you might SERIOUSLY injure someone. I hear a lot of stories hangin out at the Sheriff's office (I'm an explorer) and most of the stories I hear, the person who receives the most amount of damage is the victim, even if the were the initial attacker.

I used to hate BJJ (until I practiced it) but it places great emphasis on first learning how to control your opponent, then, if need be, used violence.

Warning: I am not saying Taijutsu is not capable of being peaceful, but it contains so much violent, law unfriendly techniques.


Kyle

 

[Don Roley]

I hear a lot of stories hangin out at the Sheriff's office (I'm an explorer) and most of the stories I hear, the person who receives the most amount of damage is the victim, even if the were the initial attacker.

Because so many incidents start out with two young studs yelling at each other and puffing their chests up before somebody throws the first blow. Both sides say the other side did, and the witnesses are not sure and give conflicting stories. In this case, the police seem to assume that the guy who is still standing is that way because he sucker punched first and thus got the advantage. The thing is, most of the time they are right.

In the above situation, one side may have thrown the first blow, but neither side was showing a willingness to get away or avoid the fight. So, throw the guy with the least damage into jail.

Take a look at this thread about hoko no kamae for some ideas about how to avoid this type of situation. I especially like the story by Tengu6 about how Butch Johnson used Hoko to defend himself and beat the other guy into the ground and not be hauled away after the fight.

Think about this. What if someone at a fast food place starts the screaming and puffing up chest dance. You step back into Hoko and start saying very loudly, "I don't want any of this macho bovine feces." The other guys takes a step towards you and you use tobijutsu to bounce away toward the door. Now the entire restraunt has seen you state you don't want a fight, try to get away and the other guy chasing you before the fight starts.

If he is the guy that goes to the emergency room, do you think your chances of getting off are a lot better now?

Of course, it helps if you don't try to tough it out and ask for medical care for any injuries the other guy did to you. And you find people who saw what was going on and ask them to stick around to tell the cops. If the only guys still there when the police show up are his friends you are in deep doo doo.

The core tenent of ninjutsu is not beating the other guy into mulch, but to get home alive. If you make a good effort to get away from the other guy before the fight starts, your chances of not getting into legal trouble are better.

 

[Peter Steeves]

Yup - the post on Hoko no kamae was really good.

Yup - most of what we do is unjustifiable use of force - wasn't meant for polite society, but rather for the battlefield.

Yup - looking like you're trying to NOT fight is a good way to help your case in court (I hope this part comes naturally - if you're out looking for a fight, then please don't complain about your court case).

I've also become an instructor of CDT - non-lethal methods of control. It's a great approach to training, but it's really a watered down version of what our training already does. However, it's watered down in a purposeful way, and that has some value. In class, I often mention which parts of the technique are NOT going to be accepted if you're questioned by the authorities.

Or, as one of my early instructors said after showing a particularly devastating technique, "...then if you see those blue lights....RUN!" ;-)