Ultimate Fighter Clip
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Well boy's and alcohol are a dangerous mix. Actually the taller guy who was on top and slamming him at the end was according to him drinking heavily. (per his words) It does show one dramatic disadvantage of being in the guard on cement in that if the other guy is strong enough to pick you up and slam you down you probably are going to have some issues. The guard is not where you really want to be in a real world confrontation. Just my o2. as usual.
Kosho Gakkusei
Blue Belt
I posted some thoughts about this on another thread. I will copy those posts so you can see my thoughts but the originals are here. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49782&page=2
Just went to a Seminar by Bruce Juchnik in Conneticut where he shared what he thought about UFC. He said that while it was entertaining from a Martial Arts perspective he thought it was little more than half naked, sweaty men rolling around on the floor together. Speaking of half naked men and the value of ground "game"- spike tv on Thursday had a UFC reality show where 2 of the contestants were drinking and got into an actual fight. One was a Muy Thai guy and the other was BJJ. During the fight the BJJ guy tried an arm bar or a triangle choke and the Muy Thai guy picked him up and slammed his head on the concrete deck - so much for that submission.
_don flatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegLockGuy
I'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing ever to say. "So much for submission" The guy was a dumbass, you dont pull guard on the street. You go for a takedown and apply the submission/choke.
You've misquoted me, sir. I said, "So much for THAT submission."
I'm not saying submissions are useless but on the street there are inherant problems with utilizing submissions. Specifically, environmental risks, multiple attackers, & no rules or referee.
Environmental risks: Rolling on broken glass, getting slammed into concrete or rocks, sewage grates, buildings, garbage cans, dumpsters, brick walls, used hypodermic needles, and moving vehicles.
Without rules or a referee pain compliance is a bad idea because different people have different pain tolerences. Not to mention that attackers will develop a tolerance for the pain compliance technique the longer it is on. So that leaves us with a choke or a joint lock. In my opinion the choke is superior because if you break an arm or joint you will have legal consequences. Tapping is irrelevant on the street. Let's say you make me tap on the street - who's to say once you let off your lock that I won't attack you? What ever you do on the street you better be ready to finish it. This is what makes chokes superior on the street but then again if you choke someone out it's not really a submission. The very idea of submission carries the idea of a contest. There is one distinction to be made - for law enforcement - restraining a perpetrator until back-up arrives is not only useful but is expected. Better hope that you don't have to wait too long with a resistant perpetrator.
_Don Flatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegLockGuy
Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.
The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.
So maybe I should go to the ground in that crowded club and not worry about getting trampled or someone stomp kicking my head?
...or...
I should see if I can get that gang banger to tap before his homies kick my ribcage in?
I'm not saying one does not need to study grappling - I personally do. I like grappling. I wrestle frequently and occasion a local MMA gym from time to time. I also watch UFC - less from martial arts value and more for entertaining value. I think it's a better sport to watch than boxing.
I even study submissions and locks for two reasons:
1: Studying submissions and locks means not only learning to apply them but also how to defend against them. Just because I will aim to keep from going to the ground does not mean I don't want to know how to get back up if I do end up there. Just because I think submission is not the best option for the street does not mean I don't want to know how to defend against one.
2: Locks make great transitions and set ups for strikes, throws or just plain running away. I think striking and throwing are superior for self defense because they achieve their results quicker. But for true self defense, getting away without harm would be the ultimate goal.
Personally, I've been in about a dozen or so street fights most before I turned 18. Of the 12 or so fights only 2 went to the ground. On both occaisions my opponent tried to tackle me and I used a hip wheel throw that I learned in Judo that ended with me on top with them in a headlock.
The 1st time I was about 13 or 14 and as I was choking the kid out I found myself surrounded by 5 of his friends. Believe me I got up quick! Once up I knew that no matter how hard they hit me I better not go down and I didn't.
The 2nd time a fight went to the ground I was 16 and my opponent found himself in the same choke hold. Before he lost conciousness from the choke he managed to get my arm into his mouth and bit me. Suffice it to say that fight ended on the feet.
LegLockGuy, maybe the street fights you've experienced were just different than mine and that's why we see things differently. Maybe in your neighborhood they only fight on surfaces that won't hurt you if you fall on them. Maybe in your neighborhood they fight until some one taps and when they do the tappee says, "You win. I give up." and means it. Maybe in your neighborhood they won't claw, bite, poke eyes, or break fingers to get out of a choke hold. Maybe in your neighborhood they don't strike to the base of the skull, strike or grab the groin, or knee and kick to the head when you're on the ground. You have a nice neighborhood. Let me know where it is, maybe I'll move there. But then again the officials might not let me in because I don't have a history of fighting that way.
I won't be trying to utilize the triangle choke in the event I'm getting jumped by the Bloods or the Crips and I'll do the best to stay on my feet and get the heck out of there because I know what a Newark Curb Kick is. If I get a gun pulled on me I might use a Kote Gaesh but my objective would not be to get the gun man to tap but rather to take posession of the weapon.
Just trying to make a point.
_Don Flatt
Just went to a Seminar by Bruce Juchnik in Conneticut where he shared what he thought about UFC. He said that while it was entertaining from a Martial Arts perspective he thought it was little more than half naked, sweaty men rolling around on the floor together. Speaking of half naked men and the value of ground "game"- spike tv on Thursday had a UFC reality show where 2 of the contestants were drinking and got into an actual fight. One was a Muy Thai guy and the other was BJJ. During the fight the BJJ guy tried an arm bar or a triangle choke and the Muy Thai guy picked him up and slammed his head on the concrete deck - so much for that submission.
_don flatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegLockGuy
I'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing ever to say. "So much for submission" The guy was a dumbass, you dont pull guard on the street. You go for a takedown and apply the submission/choke.
You've misquoted me, sir. I said, "So much for THAT submission."
I'm not saying submissions are useless but on the street there are inherant problems with utilizing submissions. Specifically, environmental risks, multiple attackers, & no rules or referee.
Environmental risks: Rolling on broken glass, getting slammed into concrete or rocks, sewage grates, buildings, garbage cans, dumpsters, brick walls, used hypodermic needles, and moving vehicles.
Without rules or a referee pain compliance is a bad idea because different people have different pain tolerences. Not to mention that attackers will develop a tolerance for the pain compliance technique the longer it is on. So that leaves us with a choke or a joint lock. In my opinion the choke is superior because if you break an arm or joint you will have legal consequences. Tapping is irrelevant on the street. Let's say you make me tap on the street - who's to say once you let off your lock that I won't attack you? What ever you do on the street you better be ready to finish it. This is what makes chokes superior on the street but then again if you choke someone out it's not really a submission. The very idea of submission carries the idea of a contest. There is one distinction to be made - for law enforcement - restraining a perpetrator until back-up arrives is not only useful but is expected. Better hope that you don't have to wait too long with a resistant perpetrator.
_Don Flatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegLockGuy
Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.
The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.
So maybe I should go to the ground in that crowded club and not worry about getting trampled or someone stomp kicking my head?
...or...
I should see if I can get that gang banger to tap before his homies kick my ribcage in?
I'm not saying one does not need to study grappling - I personally do. I like grappling. I wrestle frequently and occasion a local MMA gym from time to time. I also watch UFC - less from martial arts value and more for entertaining value. I think it's a better sport to watch than boxing.
I even study submissions and locks for two reasons:
1: Studying submissions and locks means not only learning to apply them but also how to defend against them. Just because I will aim to keep from going to the ground does not mean I don't want to know how to get back up if I do end up there. Just because I think submission is not the best option for the street does not mean I don't want to know how to defend against one.
2: Locks make great transitions and set ups for strikes, throws or just plain running away. I think striking and throwing are superior for self defense because they achieve their results quicker. But for true self defense, getting away without harm would be the ultimate goal.
Personally, I've been in about a dozen or so street fights most before I turned 18. Of the 12 or so fights only 2 went to the ground. On both occaisions my opponent tried to tackle me and I used a hip wheel throw that I learned in Judo that ended with me on top with them in a headlock.
The 1st time I was about 13 or 14 and as I was choking the kid out I found myself surrounded by 5 of his friends. Believe me I got up quick! Once up I knew that no matter how hard they hit me I better not go down and I didn't.
The 2nd time a fight went to the ground I was 16 and my opponent found himself in the same choke hold. Before he lost conciousness from the choke he managed to get my arm into his mouth and bit me. Suffice it to say that fight ended on the feet.
LegLockGuy, maybe the street fights you've experienced were just different than mine and that's why we see things differently. Maybe in your neighborhood they only fight on surfaces that won't hurt you if you fall on them. Maybe in your neighborhood they fight until some one taps and when they do the tappee says, "You win. I give up." and means it. Maybe in your neighborhood they won't claw, bite, poke eyes, or break fingers to get out of a choke hold. Maybe in your neighborhood they don't strike to the base of the skull, strike or grab the groin, or knee and kick to the head when you're on the ground. You have a nice neighborhood. Let me know where it is, maybe I'll move there. But then again the officials might not let me in because I don't have a history of fighting that way.
I won't be trying to utilize the triangle choke in the event I'm getting jumped by the Bloods or the Crips and I'll do the best to stay on my feet and get the heck out of there because I know what a Newark Curb Kick is. If I get a gun pulled on me I might use a Kote Gaesh but my objective would not be to get the gun man to tap but rather to take posession of the weapon.
Just trying to make a point.
_Don Flatt
Ok I know I'm like a broken record here but why do people think what they do in the UFC is for self defence?
MMA is a sport. We train MMA for MMA and we train self defence for self defence. The two are not actually the same thing, though some techniques may overlap. When people stop thinking of the UFC as being for the street we may get somewhere.
MMA is a sport. We train MMA for MMA and we train self defence for self defence. The two are not actually the same thing, though some techniques may overlap. When people stop thinking of the UFC as being for the street we may get somewhere.
Kosho Gakkusei
Blue Belt
Well said, Tez3 but unfortunately as long as people think it's for the street they'll still be trying it on the street. Like you said some moves will work and some will wind up hurting you more than you're opponent.
I just read a news story about the increase in injuries to kids from wheelies. I won't be surprised if in a few years theirs a report about an epidemic of injuries from people trying some of these moves on the street.
_Don Flatt
I just read a news story about the increase in injuries to kids from wheelies. I won't be surprised if in a few years theirs a report about an epidemic of injuries from people trying some of these moves on the street.
_Don Flatt
Ten plus years of "Nothing but MMA is good for fighting." (The same mindset that ridicules Fred Ettish etc.)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
Great points all around!:ultracool
So true Brian! I can agree if you happen to end up there, try to get back to your feet quick, but to intentionally stay there...well, thats not for me.
Good point, and this leads me to another thread, which I'll be starting shortly. Then again, I have to wonder how many clubs take into consideration what you just said. Sounds like yours addresses both, which is great IMO.
Agreed!
So true Brian! I can agree if you happen to end up there, try to get back to your feet quick, but to intentionally stay there...well, thats not for me.
Good point, and this leads me to another thread, which I'll be starting shortly.
Then again, I have to wonder how many clubs take into consideration what you just said. Sounds like yours addresses both, which is great IMO. Agreed!
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