Transistion from TKD

[CanadianBB]

Hi Everyone,
I have a question. Over the years I have trained Tae Kwon Do (12 years) Russian martial Arts 3 years.... and think I have finally found what I have been searching for. A small KungFu school that trains a couple times a week. I know nothing of Chinese styles and would appreciate any input this forum can bring to me.

Here is my training Program as explained to me:

Bai Lin Dao Gongfu program. here you will learn the animal forms of tiger, ape, dragon, eagle, and lion. This is your foundation. Building on this you will learn Bagua (which employs the circle walking), taiji (tai chi), neigong (the older parent of qigong), and Liuhebafa (Waterboxing).

Taiji (We practice Wu and Yang) Bagua (we do a version of cheng and gao systems) and neigong (we do the water method as opposed to the fire method).

I am lost.... I am really enjoying, but am to new to these arts to know what kind of a choice I have made. I am thinking of doing some cross training in MMA to keep fit but not sure if this is needed. In TKD and other arts... sometimes the external made me feel I was accomplishing more, but was I?

So, others who have left a hard true and tried art such as TKD, Karate etc.... how did your transistion go? Any hints on how to learn more and how to make the internal arts also a reasonable workout? By the way... turning 50 so that is one of the reasons to look for softer.... but I still want effective Martial Arts.

Any answers very appreciated....

 

[terryl965]

CanadianBB I am glad you found something to your liking, remember the transition is up to you emptying your glass one cannot learn a different style until you can grasp the whole picture.

Welcome and enjoy

 

[pete]

CanadianBB, coupla things you mentioned, and how you phrased them, indicate that you (a) are looking forward to some new, interesting, and fun training methods, but (b) still clinging a bit to your past. (which is ok for a while, but don't let that interfere with your 'beginners mind)

1. Lots of different stuff on the agenda, all CMA, but seems that its a mix of what is classically refered to as 'external' (shaolin animal styles) with 'internal' (tai chi, bagua, etc). Not sure if your program combines all of these styles and teaches together, or you move sequentially from one to the next, but there may be conflicts and confusion if too much is done at once.

2. Even within the 'internals', better to establish a foundation in one before learning another. Eventually they all do compliment and support each other, but again beware of too much too soon, or you may just get a thin layer of each.

3. You may want to ask why 2 styles of Tai Chi are taught (Wu vs Yang) and why 2 styles of Bagua (Cheng vs Gao)... Wu Tai Chi is derived from Yang, while Gao Bagua is derived from Cheng, so it may be to provide history and point of reference, but nice to know which style would be your 'primary' in each art.

4. Water method is good stuff. Is it through the Bruce Frantzis/Liu Hung Chieh line? If so, read the books!

5. What makes you think that Tai Chi, Bagua, etc. are not 'tried and true' arts? Can your teacher make them work? Do you believe that he can teach you how to make them work? If there is doubt, you'd be best to remove those doubts or move on, as that mindset may interfere with your learning process.

6. What do you consider a 'reasonable workout'? Tai Chi can give you the aches that make you strong and Bagua should make you sweat to develop quickness and agility. But you must understand while 'external arts' are about developing power through muscular strength, and speed through training repetition and ingraining pre-programmed sequences as unconscious reflexive action... 'internals' develop awareness, knowledge of angles, and delivery of relaxed power through fully conscious actions. Therefore, training will be different. Think of 'external' as Cardio workout, while 'internals' are more of a Vascular exercise.

7. If externals make you feel as if you are accomplishing more, think of the Taoist philosophies that govern the internals... Do less, but leave nothing undone.

8. Tai Chi may appear soft, but it is the balance of Yin and Yang... think of it as soft on the outside, but hard on the inside.

good luck in your training... 50 is the new 30!
pete

 

[CanadianBB]

CanadianBB I am glad you found something to your liking, remember the transition is up to you emptying your glass one cannot learn a different style until you can grasp the whole picture.

Welcome and enjoy

Thanks, I am really looking forward to the whole journey into this. I understand about making sure there is room for new knowledge, so I am very careful to not make any comparisons.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Any hints on how to learn more and how to make the internal arts also a reasonable workout? By the way... turning 50 so that is one of the reasons to look for softer.... but I still want effective Martial Arts.

Don't try to make the taiji and bagua a "workout" as you know it.

The biggest problem you will face is the completely different mindset of the CIMA. Many people can't handle the paradigm they present so they drag their old paradigm along with them. They feel more comfortable with that paradigm, but it prevents them from learning something new.

After 12 years in TKD you should have effective martial arts. If not....

So just let the taiji and bagua be what it is rather than trying to make it what you think is "effective."

As to workouts, taiji and bagua both try to slow down the metabolism, not speed it up as is so popular in the West. It works 180 degrees opposite of what everyone thinks we should be doing. But people can't handle that so they make the CIMA work like their old styles -- thereby robbing the CIMA of what make them special.

The sooner you can change your mindset, the quicker your results will come.

 

[ggg214]

these days, so many people learning other styles want to make a transition to CIMA.
it's interesting.

CMA and other country's MA are two different styles of MA, based on different concepts, different body building etc. although someone says they have the same ultimate target, the beginning is quite different.

i think terry1965 is right. you should define yourself as a freshman with blank MA background. then you will get as more as possible.when you reach the certain level, you may mix them.

 

[Rabu]

Look for the similiarities, but allow for the differences and understand them.

'Empty the cup' is often stated but harder to actually perform. I would recommend allowing the art you are getting a chance to train in be itself without making requirements of it. At least for a while.

Even if you dont know what it is, try to have an idea of why you are training and measure whether you are achieving those goals over time.

CMA should be different than KMA experience as well as having some similiairities. The focus of the training may be very different and open up some new doors.

Best of luck in your trip, keep your eyes open and listen to your heart.

Rob

 

[HG1]

Hi Everyone,
I have a question. Over the years I have trained Tae Kwon Do (12 years) Russian martial Arts 3 years.... and think I have finally found what I have been searching for. A small KungFu school that trains a couple times a week. I know nothing of Chinese styles and would appreciate any input this forum can bring to me.

Here is my training Program as explained to me:

Bai Lin Dao Gongfu program. here you will learn the animal forms of tiger, ape, dragon, eagle, and lion. This is your foundation. Building on this you will learn Bagua (which employs the circle walking), taiji (tai chi), neigong (the older parent of qigong), and Liuhebafa (Waterboxing).

Taiji (We practice Wu and Yang) Bagua (we do a version of cheng and gao systems) and neigong (we do the water method as opposed to the fire method).

I am lost.... I am really enjoying, but am to new to these arts to know what kind of a choice I have made. I am thinking of doing some cross training in MMA to keep fit but not sure if this is needed. In TKD and other arts... sometimes the external made me feel I was accomplishing more, but was I?

So, others who have left a hard true and tried art such as TKD, Karate etc.... how did your transistion go? Any hints on how to learn more and how to make the internal arts also a reasonable workout? By the way... turning 50 so that is one of the reasons to look for softer.... but I still want effective Martial Arts.

Any answers very appreciated....

Maintain the kicking skills you developed in Tae Kwon Do, they will be a nice complement to the new skills you are learning.

 

[terryl965]

Maintain the kicking skills you developed in Tae Kwon Do, they will be a nice complement to the new skills you are learning.

I would have to agree, TKD kicks are deadly even if it is just us who says so.

 

[CanadianBB]

CanadianBB, coupla things you mentioned, and how you phrased them, indicate that you (a) are looking forward to some new, interesting, and fun training methods, but (b) still clinging a bit to your past. (which is ok for a while, but don't let that interfere with your 'beginners mind)

Yes, I really am looking forward to this new training. Sometimes it is hard to let go of all of the past but I am looking forward.. not backwards.

1. Lots of different stuff on the agenda, all CMA, but seems that its a mix of what is classically refered to as 'external' (shaolin animal styles) with 'internal' (tai chi, bagua, etc). Not sure if your program combines all of these styles and teaches together, or you move sequentially from one to the next, but there may be conflicts and confusion if too much is done at once.

From what I am learning is a little bit at a time. I find I am doing a lot more reading on each topic which is really good. I am trying to work on things and find a good flow through it all.

2. Even within the 'internals', better to establish a foundation in one before learning another. Eventually they all do compliment and support each other, but again beware of too much too soon, or you may just get a thin layer of each.

I am trying to keep things at a pace where I can learn and retain things. Our Instructor is very good at not over doing each lesson. Sometimes it is hard for me as I am use to going all out in the ways I have previous learned but now am willing to take a step back and progress.

3. You may want to ask why 2 styles of Tai Chi are taught (Wu vs Yang) and why 2 styles of Bagua (Cheng vs Gao)... Wu Tai Chi is derived from Yang, while Gao Bagua is derived from Cheng, so it may be to provide history and point of reference, but nice to know which style would be your 'primary' in each art.

From what I am seeing, mostly History. Our main Tai Chi is Wu.

4. Water method is good stuff. Is it through the Bruce Frantzis/Liu Hung Chieh line? If so, read the books!

Yes as a matter of fact currently reading Power of Internal martial Arts and am waiting for Opening the Energy Gates by Bruce Frantziz

5. What makes you think that Tai Chi, Bagua, etc. are not 'tried and true' arts? Can your teacher make them work? Do you believe that he can teach you how to make them work? If there is doubt, you'd be best to remove those doubts or move on, as that mindset may interfere with your learning process.

I apologize, but I realize when you put it to me that way... I do need to change my mind set. I believe these new arts are extremely tried and true... Now I will keep them in my mind during training.

6. What do you consider a 'reasonable workout'? Tai Chi can give you the aches that make you strong and Bagua should make you sweat to develop quickness and agility. But you must understand while 'external arts' are about developing power through muscular strength, and speed through training repetition and ingraining pre-programmed sequences as unconscious reflexive action... 'internals' develop awareness, knowledge of angles, and delivery of relaxed power through fully conscious actions. Therefore, training will be different. Think of 'external' as Cardio workout, while 'internals' are more of a Vascular exercise.

I think I am use to sweating once in a while and staying fit this way. I was concerned that the softer, internal, would not keep my body trim and fit, but at the same time any pictures I have seen showing these arts being practiced... did not show overweight people.


7. If externals make you feel as if you are accomplishing more, think of the Taoist philosophies that govern the internals... Do less, but leave nothing undone.

I know I have lots to learn, much to relearn, much to forget, and much more to remember.

8. Tai Chi may appear soft, but it is the balance of Yin and Yang... think of it as soft on the outside, but hard on the inside.

Tough to learn to...

good luck in your training... 50 is the new 30!
pete

Thank you so much for the insight. I know I found the right path to follow and I will take things in stride.

 

[CanadianBB]

Maintain the kicking skills you developed in Tae Kwon Do, they will be a nice complement to the new skills you are learning.


I think I am starting to understand something about the Kicks I have learned... They belong to me...

 

[CanadianBB]

Don't try to make the taiji and bagua a "workout" as you know it.

I am starting to understand this. One of the reasons I wanted this is because I was starting to feel that I had to face the reality that a 25 year old could kick higher and better then a 50 year old. I believe Martial Arts has to be deeper then age.

The biggest problem you will face is the completely different mindset of the CIMA. Many people can't handle the paradigm they present so they drag their old paradigm along with them. They feel more comfortable with that paradigm, but it prevents them from learning something new.

I Will continue to let myself get immersed into these arts. I have to remember once upon a time I knew nothing.



After 12 years in TKD you should have effective martial arts. If not....

Yes, that holds very true. If after 12 years I had nothing.... I would be very disappointed. I have never had to use my Martial Arts, but on a recent occasion where I had to stand my ground from a slightly deranged fellow, I stood my ground, talked him down, was glad I did not have to fight, yet was willing to if needed, but had to admit I was happy I did not have to fight. Of course one could say I did exactly what Martial Arts is suppose to do... Difuse the Situation without violence. Afterwards in my mind I wondered what would or would not have happened, but deep inside I knew the fellow was lucky he stopped.

So just let the taiji and bagua be what it is rather than trying to make it what you think is "effective."

I have already seen how effective it can be... I just wonder if it is a very long journey before i have a reasonable amount of knowledge.

As to workouts, taiji and bagua both try to slow down the metabolism, not speed it up as is so popular in the West. It works 180 degrees opposite of what everyone thinks we should be doing. But people can't handle that so they make the CIMA work like their old styles -- thereby robbing the CIMA of what make them special.

The sooner you can change your mindset, the quicker your results will come.

I am going forward and realizing that there is great knowledge.

 

[CanadianBB]

these days, so many people learning other styles want to make a transition to CIMA.
it's interesting.

CMA and other country's MA are two different styles of MA, based on different concepts, different body building etc. although someone says they have the same ultimate target, the beginning is quite different.

i think terry1965 is right. you should define yourself as a freshman with blank MA background. then you will get as more as possible.when you reach the certain level, you may mix them.

I think when I first began my Martial Arts training, I was looking for CIMA but needed to see and feel fire and flash. Now I realize that the Power comes from Inside. I always believe in so much of what I am starting to learn now but was immersed in a regiment of kick more and more....

I will take this and let my mind accept myself as a beginner.

 

[ggg214]

welcome to CIMA world!

 

[RRepster]

Hi Everyone,
I have a question. Over the years I have trained Tae Kwon Do (12 years) Russian martial Arts 3 years.... and think I have finally found what I have been searching for. A small KungFu school that trains a couple times a week. I know nothing of Chinese styles and would appreciate any input this forum can bring to me.

Here is my training Program as explained to me:

Bai Lin Dao Gongfu program. here you will learn the animal forms of tiger, ape, dragon, eagle, and lion. This is your foundation. Building on this you will learn Bagua (which employs the circle walking), taiji (tai chi), neigong (the older parent of qigong), and Liuhebafa (Waterboxing).

Taiji (We practice Wu and Yang) Bagua (we do a version of cheng and gao systems) and neigong (we do the water method as opposed to the fire method).

I am lost.... I am really enjoying, but am to new to these arts to know what kind of a choice I have made. I am thinking of doing some cross training in MMA to keep fit but not sure if this is needed. In TKD and other arts... sometimes the external made me feel I was accomplishing more, but was I?

So, others who have left a hard true and tried art such as TKD, Karate etc.... how did your transistion go? Any hints on how to learn more and how to make the internal arts also a reasonable workout? By the way... turning 50 so that is one of the reasons to look for softer.... but I still want effective Martial Arts.

Any answers very appreciated....

I made the "transition" recently to internal styles from TKD. My Sifu is Ken Gullette. I'm still working on the internal energy body mechanics and some Hsing-I. The body mechanics is very very different than TKD but I like it because I injured myself in the military and have chronic pain now which makes the fast, hard military like drilling of TKD almost impossible now. Be glad you actually have a school near you. Here in the midwest there is only TKD (most of which are ATA kiddie black belt schools at that) so I correspond with Sifu Ken through his online school/video etc...

 

[blindsage]

Relax, relax, relax......oh, and then relax. I come from a Karate background and am now studying Bagua. The main thing I see as the fundamental difference is that Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, Liu He Ba Fa are about achieving speed, power, and health through relaxation from the get go. This is almost the complete opposite of most MA's. So as you're working on your forms, or walking the circle, or doing neigong, a key component should always be to let go more and more. Relax, relax, relax.

 

[hkfuie]

I am and suspect I will always be a TKDist. But I did take KF for 6 or so years after 7 years in TKD. I found that I had to be willing to feel like I didn't know anything and just be OK with that and keep trying. I really liked the feeling of being a beginner again. That may be one of the things people mean when they say, "empty your cup." That and be open to new ideas, even if they conflict with things you have learned before. Even though TKD will always be my native "language" I definitely feel KF was hugely helpful to me. I hope you enjoy your new journey.

 

[xingyiquan]

one school teaches that many styles and each one takes a life time to master? I am just wondering how many teachers do they have?