Training in Xinyi and Tai Chi simulataneously

[BooBoo]

I was reading a discussion in an old thread from 2006 which discussed learning the Chen vs. Yang forms.
During the discussion one of the posters (you know who you are :boing2 suggested that when training in a soft form like yang and an external form, one must be careful to seperate them because they are both trying to teach different things.

My teacher's main speciality is xinyi, and he is also proficient in Tai Chi (mainly the Wu 108 form).

So I decided to concentrate my training on the 108 WU form, and on 1 or 2 Xinyi animal forms.

The reason I chose Wu is because my teacher only knows the 56 Chen form (and 24 yang form), and because it appears that the fajing style explosive movements prevalent in Chen are similar to the explosive movements found in Xinyi.

So I figured I could stick to Xinyi for explosive movements, and learn the long Wu form (rather than the shorter Chen one) to get the most benefit from Tai Chi.

It never occurred to me that this might be problematic, since both of these arts are internal. But since Xinyi appears to be harder and more explosive, could cross training in the 2 be innappropriate??

Personally, I chose Wu because it is the long form so I figure I could get more benefits than practicing a shorter/modified form - and I have also felt it relaxes my body and makes my movements more fluid (I tend to have a stiff upper body - which I think the Wu form is helping relax).

On the other hand, I find that the Xinyi forms helps me develop the explosive movement (which Chen tries to teach)- and strengthens my core muscles.

Since I don't like learning many forms and prefer training in a few, and since I figure Chen combines aspects of the Wu/Yang forms and the Xinyi explosive movements, I figured I don't really need to practice Chen regularly and have decided to stick to the Wu 108 form and a couple of Xinyi forms (although I know the 56 Chen form).

Am I right in my reasoning and analysis? What do other posters feel? Is cross-training in Internal Chinese Martial Arts more 'compatible' than cross-training in other martial arts?

Would be interested to hear opinions on this issue, thank you.

 

[ggg214]

Xin yi in your post is Xin Yi Liu He（心意六合拳） or Xing yi（形意拳）?
i don't know the cross training is compatible or not. when i started to train Xin yi liu he, i stopped my taiji training. reason one is that my shifu does not allow his diciples to train other styles; reason two is that i don't have enough time to train taiji; reason three is that taiji is too complicated for a person who don't have a good external.

 

[BooBoo]

I think what I'm talking about is Xing Yi. Can you give me a link to Xin Yi Lue He so that I know what you're talking about? The Xing Yi I'm talking about is one of the 3 main internal Chinese martial arts (the other 2 being Tai Chi and Baguazhang).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think what I'm talking about is Xing Yi. Can you give me a link to Xin Yi Lue He so that I know what you're talking about? The Xing Yi I'm talking about is one of the 3 main internal Chinese martial arts (the other 2 being Tai Chi and Baguazhang).

Xingyiquan

Xinyi Liuhe Quan

Dai Family Xinyiquan


Wu (if it is Wu 吳氏 family not Wu/Hao 武&#27663 comes from Yang and Yang comes from Chen. Chen was first Yang was second, that is unless you talk to the Zhaobao folks. So Chen does not technically combine aspects of Wu and Yang. If you are talking Wu/Hao style it combines Chen and Yang since it comes from Wu Yuxiang who studied Yang and Chen. However if you are talking Wu (吳&#27663 it comes directly from Yang. Wu Quanyu (吳全佑, 1834–1902) allegedly studied with Yang Luchan but the Yang family says (or use to say) he studied with Yang Banhou as does, I beleive, Yang Banhou's tomb.

If you are talking Taijiquan and Hebei Xingyiquan all I can tell you is they deal with things differently and training them both as a beginner could be a problem in understanding either one. Also if you are doing Xingyiquan the first stages of training are not forms but standing practice (Wuji, Santi Shi, etc.) and generally (but not always) that is followed by training Wu Xing Quan (the five element fists) Animal forms come after that.

 

[blindsage]

I think it also depends on how they are taught. My sifu teaches Taiji (Yang and Chen), Cheng style Baguazhang and Xingyi (not sure which), but he emphasizes principles in his teaching of each, and that the basic, basic, basic principles are the same. This is why these three systems are often taught in combinations of the three and have been grouped together over the years as "internal". There are a great many differences between them, but much of the basic principles are the same. If taught with this in mind I can see the possibility of training them simultaneously from the beginning, but even then it is often hard for a beginner to see how the principles are the same in the different styles' expressions.

I am studying Bagua and Xingyi and am not having a big problem with it, but I have a solid background in other styles and have spent a lot of time studying different body methods (plus I have a mixed dance background which helps).

If you insist on practicing both I, personally, feel it is important that you focus on the basic principles and make a concerted effort to see where they overlap between the two styles. Also remember the fajin that is demonstrated outwardly in Chen Taiji, and Xingyi exists equally in Yang, and the Wu forms of Taiji they are just not expressed as overtly in the forms, and whatever you see in Chen Taiji and Xingyi that appears to be hard should not confuse you as to the internal principles (and soft skills) that exist in both.

 

[BooBoo]

Xue Sheng,

Xinyi Liuhe Quan, according to the article, is just another name for the Henan branch of Xingyi. So it's the same thing then right? The terminology always confuses me, but this is the my teacher's main speciality, but he used to travel to different parts of China and I think he has an understanding of some of the other variations in Xingyi teaching.

Based on the description in wikipedia it seems like I learned the Wu family form, not the Wu/Hao. When I mentioned the Chen form, what I meant was, and I don't know if my reasoning is correct, that the Chen 56 form has some of the slow smooth movements usually associated with Tai Chi, and a couple of the fajing style explosive movements - which are absent in Yang and Wu.

I don't know if that's a disadvantage or not. But it seems to me that being able to coordinate your body movements for a quick explosive strike is something I would want to learn - and although I really like the Wu style - this is something that is not available in it (and the in the Yang). I'm not sure why since my knowledge is veyr limited at this point.

I learned Tai Chi for about 2 years before I began learning some of the Xingyi forms. We barely touched on the 5 elements though - even though our teacher stressed that they are important. But I found that the bear form of Xingyi is similar to the type of fajing strike that's found in some of the Chen strikes. Am I wrong? I'm not basing this on anything I read - just from trying out different forms.

In this link the first guy does a bear style form.

Although initially we learned it without going down to the ground and back up. And it seems simple, but our teacher can tell that our movements are not yielding much power, and he explains to us, in pretty specific detail which body part has to move in which way so that each strike can generate the most power - it's much harder than it might seem to a regular observer.

As for the standing forms you mentioned, I'm not sure what you're talking about, I'm going to have to ask him about it.

 

[BooBoo]

Also remember the fajin that is demonstrated outwardly in Chen Taiji, and Xingyi exists equally in Yang, and the Wu forms of Taiji they are just not expressed as overtly in the forms, and whatever you see in Chen Taiji and Xingyi that appears to be hard should not confuse you as to the internal principles (and soft skills) that exist in both.

Thanks for your post blindsage. I'm confused about one thing though. You say that Wu and Yang both have fajing, but if that's the case, why didn't their founders throw in a couple of fajing style moves? Isn't it necessary to practice these moves in order to get oneself accustomed to using the entire body in one coordinated strike?

Wu is great for general coordination of movement, fluidity, balance and agility - but most of the movements are the slow and smooth type (I don't know if they have a name). So, wouldn't it have been better to add a couple of the fajing type movements for completeness? Or is there something I'm missing? Why does Chen and Xingyi teach you fajing explicitly and how do the Wu and Yang teach it implicitly??

Finally, do you (or anyone) think that a Tai Chi practioner choosing Wu/Yang over Chen would be in any sort of disadvantage since it is generally perceived that Chen has the stronger martial application?

 

[blindsage]

When I mentioned the Chen form, what I meant was, and I don't know if my reasoning is correct, that the Chen 56 form has some of the slow smooth movements usually associated with Tai Chi, and a couple of the fajing style explosive movements - which are absent in Yang and Wu.

I don't know if that's a disadvantage or not. But it seems to me that being able to coordinate your body movements for a quick explosive strike is something I would want to learn - and although I really like the Wu style - this is something that is not available in it (and the in the Yang). I'm not sure why since my knowledge is veyr limited at this point.

The fajing that you see overtly expressed in the Chen form exists in Yang and Wu, it just isn't overtly expressed in the forms. Fajing is in all forms of Taiji. The outer appearance of the forms is not all there is to the forms or the styles. If your instructor isn't teaching the fajing in the Wu form maybe you're not at the level where he feels it's appropriate to teach that skill yet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks for your post blindsage. I'm confused about one thing though. You say that Wu and Yang both have fajing, but if that's the case, why didn't their founders throw in a couple of fajing style moves? Isn't it necessary to practice these moves in order to get oneself accustomed to using the entire body in one coordinated strike?

After 15 years of traditional Yang style believe me there is a lot of fajing in Yang style it just isn't as obvious as what you see in Chen.

You need to learn how to move and relax properly before fajing is of any use at all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Xinyi Liuhe Quan, according to the article, is just another name for the Henan branch of Xingyi. So it's the same thing then right? The terminology always confuses me, but this is the my teacher's main speciality, but he used to travel to different parts of China and I think he has an understanding of some of the other variations in Xingyi teaching.

Based on the description in wikipedia it seems like I learned the Wu family form, not the Wu/Hao. When I mentioned the Chen form, what I meant was, and I don't know if my reasoning is correct, that the Chen 56 form has some of the slow smooth movements usually associated with Tai Chi, and a couple of the fajing style explosive movements - which are absent in Yang and Wu.

I don't know if that's a disadvantage or not. But it seems to me that being able to coordinate your body movements for a quick explosive strike is something I would want to learn - and although I really like the Wu style - this is something that is not available in it (and the in the Yang). I'm not sure why since my knowledge is veyr limited at this point.

I learned Tai Chi for about 2 years before I began learning some of the Xingyi forms. We barely touched on the 5 elements though - even though our teacher stressed that they are important. But I found that the bear form of Xingyi is similar to the type of fajing strike that's found in some of the Chen strikes. Am I wrong? I'm not basing this on anything I read - just from trying out different forms.

In this link the first guy does a bear style form.

Although initially we learned it without going down to the ground and back up. And it seems simple, but our teacher can tell that our movements are not yielding much power, and he explains to us, in pretty specific detail which body part has to move in which way so that each strike can generate the most power - it's much harder than it might seem to a regular observer.

As for the standing forms you mentioned, I'm not sure what you're talking about, I'm going to have to ask him about it.

I don't know much about the Muslim version of Xingyiquan but in Hebei if you don't train santi you are not really training Xingyiquan.

As to animal forms I originally learned them from my first sifu but he was not really a xingyi sifu he was a modern wushu sifu. The only animal form I ever officially learned from my Xingyiquan sifu was the tiger I was pretty much buried in the 5 elements and 5 elements cascade forms so I did not get to the animal forms

 

[blindsage]

Thanks for your post blindsage.

Your welcome.

I'm confused about one thing though. You say that Wu and Yang both have fajing, but if that's the case, why didn't their founders throw in a couple of fajing style moves? Isn't it necessary to practice these moves in order to get oneself accustomed to using the entire body in one coordinated strike?

You are concetrating on the obvious movement expressions in the forms.

Wu is great for general coordination of movement, fluidity, balance and agility - but most of the movements are the slow and smooth type (I don't know if they have a name). So, wouldn't it have been better to add a couple of the fajing type movements for completeness? Or is there something I'm missing? Why does Chen and Xingyi teach you fajing explicitly and how do the Wu and Yang teach it implicitly??

Better is a relative question. But again this is a focus on the forms alone. Chen, Xingyi, Wu and Yang all teach it explicitly if you have a qualified instructor, just not all of them demonstrate it overtly in the form. This is not explicit vs. implicit, it is about when and how the method is taught. If you are doing applications for your forms, fajing should be taught explicitly in all the styles at some point.

Finally, do you (or anyone) think that a Tai Chi practioner choosing Wu/Yang over Chen would be in any sort of disadvantage since it is generally perceived that Chen has the stronger martial application?

It all depends on the quality of the teacher. I think that Chen is perceived to have the stronger martial application not because of the martial quality of the style but because of the number of teachers that teach the martial aspects of each. There are a lot more Yang teachers out there, but a much higher percentage of the Chen teachers that exist teach the martial component. That doesn't mean that it is absent or inferior in Yang or Wu styles, but if it is never taught then it can't be shown.

 

[mograph]

We do tend to focus a lot on the apparent characteristics of a style or form, when in fact those characteristics are quite fluid, when comparing between schools of the form, different practitioners and teachers.

Along the lines of what blindsage wrote, it seems that it's a matter of investigating the schools near you and seeing how they teach. Yes, it's inconvenient, but more accurate than discussing the merits of a form at arm's length.

 

[blindsage]

On the other hand, I find that the Xinyi forms helps me develop the explosive movement (which Chen tries to teach)- and strengthens my core muscles.

I was re-reading your OP and I noticed this comment. Are you working your core because of the forms, or because of the fajing?

 

[BooBoo]

I was re-reading your OP and I noticed this comment. Are you working your core because of the forms, or because of the fajing?

I'm working my core muscles because based on my understanding, my teacher's lessons, and stuff I read, having strong leg, abdominal and lower back muscles helps increase your power and facilitates power flow into a strike (I stopped working out my upper body using weights or doing pushups as well) because the nature of movements in Tai Chi and Xingyi needed to generate maximum power depends on these muscles.

So, having said that, I am working my core muscles using the Xingyi forms because most are very tiring and incorporate strength training and cardio fitness. As a workout they are very tough and I really suck at this point at doing them for a decent amount of time because my fitness level isn't what it used to be because of work and stuff, but I'm trying to bring it back up again.

So, I'm working my core because of the forms, but also, I'm working the forms because they strengthen my core!

The forms also teach me to move and coordinate my body in the proper way to release the maximum amount of power - which I guess is the fajing. I was surprised at how a simple looking straight moving form like a basic bear form has so many subtle requirements. For example, among several problems I have, or have had, that my sifu noticed, is that I stomp my foot too hard when I advance and that is inefficient since some power will dissipate through my foot to the ground rather than out of my hand. He also noticed my shoulders are quite stiff (probably as a result of my days of Muay Thai and Weight Lifting) and that also impedes the flow of power from my lower body to my hands.

By constantly correcting me I am painfully and slowly becoming aware of how I am supposed to move and am incorporating it in my general martial arts training. I have noticed that the basic principles of movements are the same in Tai Chi and Xingyi - or as my teacher explains - the power comes from the lower legs and abs, and are 'managed' by the lower back.

I hope I didn't misunderstand your question, but the above points are basically the humble (and novice) observations of a newbie.

 

[Myrmidon]

Here's an interesting article about GM Feng Zhiqiang, who studied Xinyi (with Hu Yaosheng) and Taijiquan (with Chen FaKe):

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/FZQinterview.html

 

[blindsage]

I'm working my core muscles because based on my understanding, my teacher's lessons, and stuff I read, having strong leg, abdominal and lower back muscles helps increase your power and facilitates power flow into a strike (I stopped working out my upper body using weights or doing pushups as well) because the nature of movements in Tai Chi and Xingyi needed to generate maximum power depends on these muscles.

So, having said that, I am working my core muscles using the Xingyi forms because most are very tiring and incorporate strength training and cardio fitness. As a workout they are very tough and I really suck at this point at doing them for a decent amount of time because my fitness level isn't what it used to be because of work and stuff, but I'm trying to bring it back up again.

So, I'm working my core because of the forms, but also, I'm working the forms because they strengthen my core!

The forms also teach me to move and coordinate my body in the proper way to release the maximum amount of power - which I guess is the fajing. I was surprised at how a simple looking straight moving form like a basic bear form has so many subtle requirements. For example, among several problems I have, or have had, that my sifu noticed, is that I stomp my foot too hard when I advance and that is inefficient since some power will dissipate through my foot to the ground rather than out of my hand. He also noticed my shoulders are quite stiff (probably as a result of my days of Muay Thai and Weight Lifting) and that also impedes the flow of power from my lower body to my hands.

By constantly correcting me I am painfully and slowly becoming aware of how I am supposed to move and am incorporating it in my general martial arts training. I have noticed that the basic principles of movements are the same in Tai Chi and Xingyi - or as my teacher explains - the power comes from the lower legs and abs, and are 'managed' by the lower back.

I hope I didn't misunderstand your question, but the above points are basically the humble (and novice) observations of a newbie.

That does answer my question, thanks.