Training 1,000 hours for a milisecond advantage

[geezer]

I was talking with one of my few FMA students about why he quit Wing Chun years ago in favor of Shaolin Long Fist or something of that nature. He said that one reason was aesthetics and feel... It just seemed to suit him better. That's cool. But I had a problem with the second reason he gave, namely that he didn't see the practicality of all the time spent training Chi-Sau. "Like how is that going to work in a fight. I mean do you really think you can continue to 'stick' to your opponent like that?" My response was that you aren't trying to stick, you are trying to slip through and hit! That the sensitivity and reactions developed in Chi-Sau are about getting that instant's advantage in an exchage...basically you invest 1,000 hours of training for a milisecond's edge.

Besides, I think Chi-Sau practice is fun...Like a physical chess game. Any thoughts?

 

[CuongNhuka]

I do agree with the title. However, every now and then, you need to do more then Chi Sao. I've seen Wing Chun guys do what is basicly kick boxing, and it ends up Chi Sao. That's cool and all, however, the effect would be better if they went up against a Kick Boxer. It's a new method of fighting (form your perspective atleast), and it will let you see where you need improvement. You could be a great Chi Sao-er, but unable to get into range to use that Chi Sao, so, it doesn't matter much. Know what I'm saying?

 

[punisher73]

Like all other methods it s A tool in your toolbox, not the ONLY too that you possess. It can help develop sensitivity and other attributes, but I have also heard that the typical "chi sao" drills that are always practiced are very limited with the type of energy given by each. By that, it is meant two wing chun students will have the same type of attack energy to blend and make it seemless.

You have to have other types of styles and see what type of energy they bring to the mix to make it better overall.

 

[qwksilver61]

Chi Sau is in sets,advanced Chi Sau runs the full gamit,with many vairables.
Most people in Wing Chun that I've met do not posses anything beyond the typical bong-tan fook huen-tan and therefore limited by what they can do.

 

[geezer]

Like all other methods it s A tool in your toolbox, not the ONLY too that you possess. It can help develop sensitivity and other attributes, but I have also heard that the typical "chi sao" drills that are always practiced are very limited with the type of energy given by each. By that, it is meant two wing chun students will have the same type of attack energy to blend and make it seemless.

You have to have other types of styles and see what type of energy they bring to the mix to make it better overall.

Yep, I agree. Many years back, before I took a long break from the MA's, I used to train Chi-Sau excessively with one particular partner. We became so attuned to each other that when we let loose, people said it looked pretty awesome. It made for good demos, but it wasn't fighting, it was way too cooperative ...like improvised dancing. I'm still slowly working my way back in the MA's...and I'm fully aware of the trap of working with an overly compliant partner.

 

[kidswarrior]

If I may come at this from a non-Wing Chun perspective...?

I'd just say the title is fairly true of my art. And I'd guess of the MA's in general, but I won't say that because I can only speak for myself and my students. Actually, the saying I like is not hours, but 1,000 times slow, one time fast. It won't take an hour to practice a technique, but practice it slowly and correctly a thousand times, in the air, against varying levels of resistance, against different sized/shaped attackers and types of attacks, and it begins to become part of you--and I believe, will give you that millisecond advantage.

 

[geezer]

If I may come at this from a non-Wing Chun perspective...?
I'd just say the title is fairly true of my art. And I'd guess of the MA's in general...

Yep...some truths are universal. Funny how a lot of folks don't get that, though. Everyone wants immediate results. But as I tell my students in and outside of the MA's (I'm a high school ceramics teacher too) "If it were so easy that you didn't have to work at it...there wouldn't be any classes and you wouldn't earn any credit!" By the way, what's the story behind the name "kidswarrior"? I mean "Geezer" is pretty obvious--as in old and cranky. But "kidswarrior" sounds more interesting.

 

[kidswarrior]

By the way, what's the story behind the name "kidswarrior"? I mean "Geezer" is pretty obvious--as in old and cranky. But "kidswarrior" sounds more interesting.

Well, I work with and for kids who've been pushed to the margins of society--partly their own fault, probably partly cultural (some kids get dealt with more harshly by the authorities). So the name is partly because my job is to help guide those marginalized kids back into the mainstream, if possible (they have to want it, too). And it works a good portion of the time.

On the other hand, every once in awhile a kid comes through who is beyond any personal desire or hope for putting in the work to achieve the American Dream and have made the Thug Life their career choice. They've been locked up so many times, or they've missed so much school, that they've lost any hope to try to graduate from high school. These occasional students (often between stints in lockup) can bring lots of trouble to my school--which is a storefront, one room class in a strip mall, with no administration, security, proctors, whatever but me and my female assistant. Now bear in mind, I'm 6 feet and 245, and many are bigger than I am . In addition, they can round up whole caravans of older Homies, and it can become really ugly. I have stories.

Most often, though, these guys just self-destruct. This week, for example, a 9th grader got himself locked up for armed robbery, which he *allegedly* committed as part of a gang initiation. So, he's gone for a year or so. But he's young enough that I may see him again. Anyway, I could tell sea stories all day, but that gives you an idea of the story behind the name.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting does not like or see the need for Chi sau, since it is likely if he is training real Shaolin Long Fist he will eventually get Tui Shou which is the Shaolin version of (possibly the Mandarin translation of) Chi Sau. Hell my Sanda sifu like Tui Shou.

I trained Wing Chun briefly, never got to Chi Sau but I can see the need for training it for the advantage of speed (meaning not thinking about what to do but doing it automatically) and feel. I do train Taiji and I do train push hands (Taiji Tui Shou) and you will likely never be doing push hands with someone in an actual fight but it does give you the training you need to stick, follow, find you opponent’s center and attack, defend and uproot. It makes many things happen automatically after many hours of training. I am having a big problem of late training with some Wing Chun people with self-defense applications because I am automatically doing Taiji (And trying REALLY hard not to add Qinna), it works well but it is not Wing Chun and that comes from hours and hours of Taiji Tui Shou

Chi Sau, Tui Shou, push hands, etc. are not fighting but they are basic training to give you an advantage you may just need in a fight.

 

[naneek]

Yep...some truths are universal. Funny how a lot of folks don't get that, though. Everyone wants immediate results. But as I tell my students in and outside of the MA's (I'm a high school ceramics teacher too) "If it were so easy that you didn't have to work at it...there wouldn't be any classes and you wouldn't earn any credit!" By the way, what's the story behind the name "kidswarrior"? I mean "Geezer" is pretty obvious--as in old and cranky. But "kidswarrior" sounds more interesting.

haha my old man used to say "if it was easy everyone would do it"

 

[mook jong man]

hi in the school i was at we practiced a lot of chi sau but we also did things like having a person break off randomly during chi sau and throw kicks or punches or go for a tackle rather than just do normal chi sau all the time.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I've said this before but...
In a fight when you're up against the meanest, toughest guy around, what is going to run through your mind? 'I wish I'd done more chi sao?' Or 'I wish I learnt how to hit harder'

Saying that, chi sao is incredibly important to a fighter

You will not stick to someone in a poon sao roll, but you will clinch, you will make contact. The idea of doing all that chi sao is sensitivity - knowing when your opponent is about to lift his leg or throw an attack in, before he does it.
I have fought with boxers, karate guys and MT guys and the one thing they lack is being able to feel when an attack is going to come from the clinch

If an opponent covers up, you move round the arms. If he throws an awkward punch, you will know how to move around it or deal with it

Chi sao is just a tool that helps improve your training. It should not be seen as the ultimate secret that will help you defeat everyone you come across. But it is worthwhile training it

 

[brocklee]

I've said this before but...
In a fight when you're up against the meanest, toughest guy around, what is going to run through your mind? 'I wish I'd done more chi sao?' Or 'I wish I learnt how to hit harder'

Saying that, chi sao is incredibly important to a fighter

You will not stick to someone in a poon sao roll, but you will clinch, you will make contact. The idea of doing all that chi sao is sensitivity - knowing when your opponent is about to lift his leg or throw an attack in, before he does it.
I have fought with boxers, karate guys and MT guys and the one thing they lack is being able to feel when an attack is going to come from the clinch

If an opponent covers up, you move round the arms. If he throws an awkward punch, you will know how to move around it or deal with it

Chi sao is just a tool that helps improve your training. It should not be seen as the ultimate secret that will help you defeat everyone you come across. But it is worthwhile training it

Absolutely right. Dont go into a fight with anticipation to use Chi Sao. It is only a tool used to train feeling and allow you to work an opponent without having to see where everything is located. It's not to get you to stick to the person

 

[graychuan]

This is a very interesting thread. It seems to have evolved quickly into a Chi Sao discussion of sorts. I would like to offer this....


It is a known fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. The hand can move faster than the eye can track. Just try to track a fastball from a pro or try to catch the slight of hand from a master Mage. This is also true in a fight. 'It always the one that you dont see that gets you'. Kinda reminds me of the Kuen Kuit...'Good Wing Chun is felt but not seen.' Anyways, Chi Sao, being a sensitivity excersize, developes a way to track your opponents intentions with your own hands(Sao) so that you dont fall behind.
This is why it is so important to get proper bridge contact immediately or to attack thier attack with a bridging movement to occupy space (Bil Gee). After that we maintain that range with moving stances and bridging(Chum Kil) in order to stay in the proper followthrough range. At this point we use the basic hand postures (SLT) to end the fight.
Wing Chun as a training system teaches us from the inside out(SLT,CK,BG) but in the event of a fight we move outside in as I described earlier. This way...the closer we get to an opponent the more comfortable we should become.
Chi Sao is the way we bring it all together. When an attack is engaged, natural reaction always gets our hands up and we make contact with something. If that 'shape' or 'energy' at that moment triggers the muscle memory of a trained and powerful technique and our followthrough is supported by the proper structure, then the art comes alive and there is no need to be caught up in the eyes.
There is a Kuen Kuit that says something like ' Attack the emptiness '. This is not an emptiness in vision...its an emptiness in sensitivity and asking energy.

 

[naneek]

what an interesting post this is why i love this forum, the little gems of wisdom i get from you guys always makes me think:boing1: