Traditional and Modern Martial Arts in Today's China
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
Not really.
Aside from the obvious old school teacher not wanting to cheapen his teachings by doing it "movie fu" style, most TCMA styles are ugly. Not flashy, not meant for extended movie style fight scenes. The majority of TCMAs want to put you on the ground, ASAP, and finish with a break or sharp pokey thing imbedded in tender spots.
That's what Modern PRC Wushu can handle. TCMAs... have a different mindset. My own MAs of choice: Choy Lay Fut & Lama Pai for instance. The preferred treatment of a person is to knock them down quickly, breaking an extremity in process if everything comes together just so & leaving them incapacitated to the point of "finishing" is a discretionary measure & choice by me. That doesn't always translate well to film. Not to mention the amount of time required to get the basics down (yep, basics) to perform at a level of realism for a movie... not worth it.
That's jus IMO & IME... in China, obviously, milage varies.
Aside from the obvious old school teacher not wanting to cheapen his teachings by doing it "movie fu" style, most TCMA styles are ugly. Not flashy, not meant for extended movie style fight scenes. The majority of TCMAs want to put you on the ground, ASAP, and finish with a break or sharp pokey thing imbedded in tender spots.
That's what Modern PRC Wushu can handle. TCMAs... have a different mindset. My own MAs of choice: Choy Lay Fut & Lama Pai for instance. The preferred treatment of a person is to knock them down quickly, breaking an extremity in process if everything comes together just so & leaving them incapacitated to the point of "finishing" is a discretionary measure & choice by me. That doesn't always translate well to film. Not to mention the amount of time required to get the basics down (yep, basics) to perform at a level of realism for a movie... not worth it.
That's jus IMO & IME... in China, obviously, milage varies.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Well even though you ARE a devil talker and not a proper Mandarin speaker our mileage on this topic is the same.
The old guys will stay away and to get rid of you they will even tell you their stuff is no good, seen that myself, and the real stuff is not pretty. Xingyiquan wants to hit you hard and once and walk away. as do many other arts. Hell my Sanda sifu, the stuff the police and military use not the in the ring stuff, he wants to get things over with as quick and as painfully as possible and I know those guys are in China and that is much newer than the traditional stuff and I am betting they did not show up either since those guys seem to be more secretive than the old traditional guys and that is saying something.
I'd listen to Dale or he may show you some of that Traditional Martial Arts that is not there anymore...and you really don't want that :EG:
Maybe I read it differently to you. This was, as I read it, a documentary looking for old style masters and the lack thereof. Nothing to do with flashy. Even Bruce Lee, I think, was quoted to have said that a real fight is over in seconds. Reality does not suit the movie world.
Again, my reading, I thought the article was saying that the TCMAs were losing out to more contemporary forms of MAs such as BJJ and Muay Thai.
I would have thought your preferred styles of Choi Lay Fut and Lama Pai, both old styles, would have been seen in the same category as TCMAs. That is why I said it was sad. :asian:
Yeah... read it different. Different take. Same basic thoughts.
The old TCMA guys are cagey at times. Like Xue said, they'll downplay to the point of nonexistant skill. The styles I practice are old, but not as old as some. They definitely are TCMAs. The difference is both were made popular during the Qing Dynasty as attracting & training rebellious types. Wang Yan Lam of Lama Pai was #1 of the 10 Tigers of Canton during that time. Those styles spread greatly through Southern China. It's not hard to find a younger practitioner to demo CLF for documentary work. Lama is a tad harder to come across, but still, younger players are around to demo.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
They are there, not as much as there used to be and there are styles dying out all the time and that is sad, but they are there. There are some pretty traditional guys still around. They tend not to show off in public, they tend not to volunteer to teach people they do not know and they tend to not care what any actor wants to learn. They can be sitting right in the room a guy walks into making a video and talking about traditional CMA and the lack of teachers or looking for guys to teach their actors and walk right out of the room and or tell the guy they dont know of any, saw that with my Taiji sifu in this country because he is old school Chinese martial arts, They are not looking for notoriety nor are they looking to get famous they want to teach what they know to people who really want to learn it not to someone to go off and do a movie. That is not to say it does not happen from time to time, it did for the movie Ip Man, but then Donnie Yen is not your typical actor, he comes from a martial arts family.
Walk around the parks in China and you will likely not see anything of great worth right out there for all to see. Look a little deeper, especially in places foreigners and cameras dont go and you can find some gems.
My experience is more with Northerners than Southerners, even my taiji sifu who is a Southerner was trained by a Northerner and has talked about the difference in North/South teaching style, so I cannot speak much about the Southern guys but the Northern guys that are good, tend to be pretty close mouth about things and do not teach just anyone that shows up. Again some do, but it is rare by comparison
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Real Bajiquan guys are hard to find to and even if you find one does not mean they will teach you. I found a Bajiquan guy from Taiwan with a real solid and impressive lineage, who will not advertise it nor will he teach it to anyone, He will teach Xingyiquan and a couple other things but not Bajiquan
I met a teacher from Hangzhou that followed a Hui around for 10 years before he (Hui) would teach him his Bajiquan.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
My Sanda sifu was much the same, he will tell virtually no one he knows Sanda and pretty much teaches no one as well.
Quick question for you guys that's been bugging me, not entirely related, but close enough I feel it's appropriate to ask. How are those sifus able to keep it completely hidden that they practice/teach martial arts? I would imagine that they spend a lot of time practicing to get the experience and ability they have, so how do others not notice that? Is it part of the culture to not inquire when people disappear? Or do they let people close to them know? Or do they have false stories that they tell so people dont ask where they go (this one I doubt)? Or is it something else entirely?
All of the ones I met were through introductions... at a restaurant, or on the street, or playing paigow, etc...
Word of mouth & who knows who carries a long way in those circles. The old "uncles" when/if they practiced were rooftoppers, or park guys or borrowing space at a family hall/association types or just in their living rooms. Shek Kin (Mr Han from Enter the Dragon) taught Lee Koon Hung a Northern Shaolin Ditang set in his Hong Kong apartment living room. They taught a few who knew who to ask & how to ask, but never aspired to teach openly. It wasn't their thing.
My former CLF sifu's first CLF sifu taught out of his house & backyard in SF. There was a little brass plate on the front of his house that said it was the school, but unless you knew where to look, you never saw it. You almost needed a personal referral to be invited to train. Very low key, very low profile. By contrast, a senior classmate of his is running a "large & in charge" commercial type of school. Two different people doing what they do for their own reasons from the same school.
My current teacher is about to open our new facility with over 5000sq feet of training space alone. His teacher runs a small club. My teacher is easy to find, his teacher... not so much.
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The Chinese government promotes the dancing like Wushu. The Chinese government trains her police and military force in Sanshou/Shanda. You go to figure out the true reason behind it.
When I told the Chinese Wushu committe chairperson Xu Cai that Chinese government was afraid her people to start another revolution, his face had turn into green color.
When I told the Chinese Wushu committe chairperson Xu Cai that Chinese government was afraid her people to start another revolution, his face had turn into green color.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
The Sanshou they teach the police and military is not the same as you see in the ring and it comes down to this, all police are taught how to defend themselves and the Chinese police are taught Sanshou, it is not the best martial art or the deadliest, it is just a quick and easy way to teach them how to hurt someone real bad if they need to.
And since time is important when you train police they do not have a year or years for that matter to learn a traditional art, therefore they learn sanshou (Sanda). There is police/military Sanda, there is a civilian Sanda and there is a sports Sanda. There are also all sorts of other real live Martial Artists in China (Actually I have not been all over China, just in Beijing) and there were some there. However you are correct there is a lot of Modern (Performance) Wushu there as well, it is what is taught in the sports colleges....right along side of Sports Sanda. You will also find the same condition as it applies to Chinese martial arts in Harbin and Shanghai.
And since time is important when you train police they do not have a year or years for that matter to learn a traditional art, therefore they learn sanshou (Sanda). There is police/military Sanda, there is a civilian Sanda and there is a sports Sanda. There are also all sorts of other real live Martial Artists in China (Actually I have not been all over China, just in Beijing) and there were some there. However you are correct there is a lot of Modern (Performance) Wushu there as well, it is what is taught in the sports colleges....right along side of Sports Sanda. You will also find the same condition as it applies to Chinese martial arts in Harbin and Shanghai.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Total agreement here.
My first white crane sifu teaches very openly thru the San Francisco community college (he actually teaches mostly taiji and some bagua and doesn't really train white crane anymore, that is really part of his past) and in the YMCAs and thru the UC Berkeley Wushu Club. I trained with him for over 11 years before I was introduced to his white crane sifu, who is now my white crane sifu. He teaches a very small group in his back yard, I've been with him for close to four years and am by far the most junior. The other guys have been with him for decades, over 45 years in one case. At this time I am the last to be accepted into the group and I would not be surprised if there are no others. There is no sign on his door, there is no advertisement, he doesn't look for new students and actually tries to discourage them because he only wants to teach people who are very serious about their desire to learn. He has no time nor patience for half-assed training.
back in the 1960s he ran a school in SF Chinatown for a while, but he closed that down many years ago. I'd say that most of the younger generation have no idea that he even exists, unless they have some connection to someone from the older generations. Now, it's all word of mouth and you need someone who can open the door for you and make the introduction, or you will simply never be allowed to even meet him.
Of course people who know him and who are close to him know that he does this. But the general public has no idea and it's not difficult to keep a low profile and just keep quiet, minding his own business and not making noise, because he really does not care what anyone else thinks.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Well there are 1,344,130,000 people living in China and it is kind of hard to keep track of all of them
And I agree with what clfsean said and White Crane said I could add my version of it with some minor differences but all in all it is pretty much the same.
And they do not disappear they are there they just do not go around yelling "HEY!!! LOOK AT ME!!! I teach Martial arts" and they don't advertise and are not all that obvious about it. They meet their students, teach, and then go about their day. There are some who are visible, there is a guy at one of the children centers in Beijing who teaches martial arts and everyone knows he is there teaching. Not everyone knows his main style is Shanxi Xingyiquan and he used to be a bodyguard, they just know he teaches their kids Wushu and he does not volunteering information. And there are those that teach in areas of the parks that are pretty good too, but the parks are huge so it is easy to miss them and there are those that meet in houses as well. This I see as cultural more than anything else, there are incredibly wealthy people in China that if you ask them how is business they will tell you not so good and there are marital artist there that are incredibly good that will tell you they are no good or dont know any martial arts too.
