"Torture" or testing ordeals?

[CanuckMA]

Don't look at the clock.

I once took a color belt test that lasted six hours--even stress fractured my foot with about 1/2 hour to go. But I didn't know any of that till later (we were told it'd be about three hours). With only two 30-second water breaks, still turned out fine.

So don't build your own wall, either before or during. Let us know how it went!

What kind of ****ing idiots run tests like that?

What kind of even bigger ****ing idiots go along?

That is a perfect recipe for lasting injuries, and would be a solid reason for an injury lawsuit.

I'm so sick and tired of so-called instructors that do crap like that in the name of 'toughness'.

 

[kidswarrior]

What kind of f'ing idiots run tests like that?

The kind who don't know what to really test for, so they make it a fitness/TV karate test.

What kind of even bigger f'ing idiots go along?

I don't know if you're taking a shot at me or the assistant testers, so I'll assume the latter and let this go. But in case I'm one of the idiots you're referring to, I'll just say there's a lot vested in that day once you've finally gotten there, and in the heat of the experience, it's hard to know how hard you've pushed your body.

That is a perfect recipe for lasting injuries, and would be a solid reason for an injury lawsuit.

I'm so sick and tired of so-called instructors that do crap like that in the name of 'toughness'.

Why I left. This was about 10 years ago. But you're right about lasting injuries: a bone on the top of my left foot still forms a ridge, and it's hard for me to balance standing only on that side.

 

[Cryozombie]

Can I sidetrack the thread for a moment?

What the hell does a 2,3,4 hour test prove/accomplish? from reading this thread people obviously do them... but to what end?

Are you training for Mass Battlefield combat ala Last Samurai? No "fight" is going to last an HOUR let alone 2,3,4... so I don't understand the purpose.

Can someone enlighten me? The longest test I have ever had was maybe 45 minutes, and that was demoing a large number of kata, movement ideas and fighting skills... what can possibly take 4-6 hours?

 

[Lynne]

Can I sidetrack the thread for a moment?

What the hell does a 2,3,4 hour test prove/accomplish? from reading this thread people obviously do them... but to what end?

Are you training for Mass Battlefield combat ala Last Samurai? No "fight" is going to last an HOUR let alone 2,3,4... so I don't understand the purpose.

Can someone enlighten me? The longest test I have ever had was maybe 45 minutes, and that was demoing a large number of kata, movement ideas and fighting skills... what can possibly take 4-6 hours?

I can answer for Tang Soo Do. Our 6 hour evaluation tests for the black belt candidates (1st dergee red belts - Il Gups) are a test of everything they have learned from white belt. Every form, every kick, every punch, every stance is evaluated. In addition, the test is one of physical fitness. They have to do 80 or more squat thrusts, 100's and 100's of pushups, and other general fitness things. Series of a number of kicks have to be completed in X amount of time. So many punches have to be done in a certain amount of time. The horse stance has to be held for a very long time. There is sparring of course. I know I'm leaving out a lot of material. And this is the evaluation test to see if red belts are ready to test for black belt, not standard testing for lower level color belts (my tests are about one hour).

If a red belt can't meet the above requirements, they are not ready to test for black belt.

 

[jks9199]

Rather than let this issue derail the existing thread, I figured I'd start a new thread since the general topic's come up a few times.

It seems that more and more schools/associations/systems are moving towards increasingly extreme testing, especially for black belts, but sometimes for under belts, too. Things like 8 to 10 hours of testing, or huge calisthenics exercises, overnight tests, and more. Honestly, I'm not going to be surprised to hear someone say that "their" test involves camping for 3 days with only 2 matches, a knife and the clothes on your back, followed by sparring every black belt in the system who can make it, then competing in a triathlon before performing every single form and technique you ever learned, and then presenting and defending a full graduate level thesis paper, while doing a 50 mile ruck march. Or just squeezing the test process in while replicating Hell Week of BUDS.

Of course, the other extreme is getting promoted because someone likes you, with no testing process or apparent qualification. I'm not going there -- at least not yet!

What I almost have to wonder is if the "ordeal" criteria is sometimes just an excuse to be able to say "our test is so tough..." I'll tell you -- I've seen some people pass these sorts of tests -- but not have solid skills, appropriate to their ranking. H'mmm... They've got drive and guts -- but not skills? Something doesn't seem to add up. And, to be fair, I've seen people who survived these tests -- and had the solid skills, too. So the ordeal isn't a guarantee one way or the other about skills. Nor is a lack of ordeal...

Don't know... What do you folks think?

 

[Andrew Green]

I think it does a couple of things.

First, and what most instructors would probably respond, is that it turns up the stress level. When you are exhausted and still have to keep pushing that is a very high stress environment, and is a very old practice used by the military to train soldiers. Make them exhausted to the point where there bodies are ready to drop, if there brain wins and they keep going that is good

And second, like you said, it lets anyone that has been through it brag about how hard their test was, inflating the meaning and worth of that belt they tie around their waste. It's a big challenge to overcome.

And in some cases I suspect the more meaning and time that gets put into a test the easier it is to justify a large testing fee. Not to mention it is easier, the tester doesn't need as much skill in picking apart technique and coming up with effective ways to test that technique if the test is largely based around running the person into the ground.

It has its uses as a testing method. If you can still fight and keep coming forward when you are completely exhausted that is a good thing. The only way to really learn to do that is to actually do it, and its not something people will subject themselves too regullarly without a reason I guess its a matter of whether you see the "test" as a technical test, or a time to push yourself passed your usual limits.

If it is your regular instructor testing you, well, they already know exactly what you can and can't do technically. They've been seeing you do it several times a week for the past few years.

 

[Lynne]

My biggest concern is that no water is allowed during a 6-hour test (red belt evaluation to test for black belt) at our school. I realize that if everyone hydrated, then everyone would have to urinate. So what? When people are hydrating days before and then drink 1-1/2 - 2 quarts of water before the test and still end up with salt rings around their mouths and whatever dehydration symptoms they may have, it seems dangerous to me. But I don't make the rules and I will have to endure it like everyone before me. As far as I know, no one has passed out or died yet.

I don't understand the point though.

I understand the rigorous testing of physical fitness. I understand the in-depth testing of skills of course.

 

[Andrew Green]

My biggest concern is that no water is allowed during a 6-hour test

Ok, that is stupid and unsafe. During a 6 hour period of high exertion you should be drinking LOTS of water and probably something other then water in there as well to replace the other stuff you loose when you sweat.

 

[Lynne]

Ok, that is stupid and unsafe. During a 6 hour period of high exertion you should be drinking LOTS of water and probably something other then water in there as well to replace the other stuff you loose when you sweat.

I checked these facts last night and, indeed, no water/other fluids or bathroom breaks are allowed. (I always have a nervous stomach before a test. When it comes time for my 6-hour test, I'm doing Pepto-Bismol or Immodium!)

 

[terryl965]

Here is my take on it, so bare with me:

1st) My test is over three days for B.B. and it covers everything up to that point we have a physical portion on friday night that includes all sort of exorcises. This is where it begins the mind games, it is done to see how far nmy students are willing to go for that belt. It is a symbol of my training and so it is for them as well. Second days is all about one-two and three step sparring, all self defense all stance and blocks and strikes, they break for lunch for thirty minutes get warmed up again to do all there kicks, knee's, elbow and punches on different bags. Then all three sets of Poomsae's that my school does. Third day is nothing but fight day one on one- two on one- three on one, when that is completed if they are able to stand and bow out they pass.

As far as water and bathroom breaks of course I give them, I do not want any of my student dehydrated at all, we also keep a fruit and veggie tray for the testers sothey can have light snacks while testing.

To me a test is about over coming your mind and that is why it is so hard, I corrently charge $250.00 for a B.B. and that comes with a KKW certs(90.00) new uniform around (100.00) and there Belt which is (35.00) so I make nothing out of it except dinner from my new BB, they always take me to dinner kinda of a school tradition I guess, it is not mandatory but they do.

 

[Lynne]

Here is my take on it, so bare with me:

1st) My test is over three days for B.B. and it covers everything up to that point we have a physical portion on friday night that includes all sort of exorcises. This is where it begins the mind games, it is done to see how far nmy students are willing to go for that belt. It is a symbol of my training and so it is for them as well. Second days is all about one-two and three step sparring, all self defense all stance and blocks and strikes, they break for lunch for thirty minutes get warmed up again to do all there kicks, knee's, elbow and punches on different bags. Then all three sets of Poomsae's that my school does. Third day is nothing but fight day one on one- two on one- three on one, when that is completed if they are able to stand and bow out they pass.

As far as water and bathroom breaks of course I give them, I do not want any of my student dehydrated at all, we also keep a fruit and veggie tray for the testers sothey can have light snacks while testing.

To me a test is about over coming your mind and that is why it is so hard, I corrently charge $250.00 for a B.B. and that comes with a KKW certs(90.00) new uniform around (100.00) and there Belt which is (35.00) so I make nothing out of it except dinner from my new BB, they always take me to dinner kinda of a school tradition I guess, it is not mandatory but they do.

Your students who pass will certainly know they earned it! If they do not pass, do they get to retest in 6 months or so?

I don't know how long our black belt tests last and if they are allowed fluids/bathroom breaks. I just know that the higher the rank, the longer the tests.

 

[shesulsa]

Can I sidetrack the thread for a moment?

What the hell does a 2,3,4 hour test prove/accomplish? from reading this thread people obviously do them... but to what end?

Are you training for Mass Battlefield combat ala Last Samurai? No "fight" is going to last an HOUR let alone 2,3,4... so I don't understand the purpose.

Can someone enlighten me? The longest test I have ever had was maybe 45 minutes, and that was demoing a large number of kata, movement ideas and fighting skills... what can possibly take 4-6 hours?

My black belt test was over 6 hours (8, I think). The very first thing addressed is to completely exhaust the subject physically and mentally if possible. Then with no energy left, the subject must demonstrate all hyung - we have 9 long forms, 11 short forms, an original weapons form, techniques (for my test, 50 plus techniques but the panel can ask for any technique you've ever learned - for me from over 400 techniques), weapons familiarization, sparring, grappling, judo.

The techniques are performed almost last - after you've completely exhausted every last sliver of physical energy you have and you're starting to wonder what they can ask for next. The point is: can you perform your techniques with such control as to still keep your partner uninjured even in a physically exhausted state? Can you still describe what makes the technique work and demonstrate that? Can you alter the technique for an injury?

A lengthy test like that is more about memory, fitness and mental training: what do you have left after everything else has left you? Do you quit or do you get up again and do one more jump spin kick? Do you say, "this is idiotic" and walk out or do you snap to, say "YES SIR!" and do it one more time?

"Just one more time ..." is what got me through the last hour or so of my test.

It's what gets me through life sometimes when it gets screamingly difficult.

 

[Flying Crane]

I checked these facts last night and, indeed, no water/other fluids or bathroom breaks are allowed. (I always have a nervous stomach before a test. When it comes time for my 6-hour test, I'm doing Pepto-Bismol or Immodium!)

In my opinion, like Andrew, I believe this is unsafe and a real problem.

I train pretty intensely on my own, my sessions generally run a couple of hours and my clothing is literally soaked with sweat when I'm done. I could wring out my shirt and the sweat would flow out of it. I typically drink a liter to a liter and a half during these session.

I also know that if I loaded up on this much water before the training, I'd feel waterlogged, and I'd need to pee about every 15 minutes or so, and when I started to train I'd also feel thirsty halfway thru anyway.

Depriving people of water or the opportunity to pee during a strenuous and demanding physical ordeal of this length is unsafe and downright stupid. If someone suffered some health problems because of it, it could also be criminally negligent. All it takes is one injury for the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We have calisthenics at the beginning, a required essay of one page which must be read aloud, forms, technique, and all one and two step sparring techniques. Then...

For kumdo, 400 sang dan sae (not sure of the spelling, but 100 each rapid/head, left right head, wrist, left/right waist).

For taekwondo, 400 kicks; 100 each roundhouse kicks, front kicks, axe kicks, and in/out axe kicks. Then breaking; four different techniques of Master Kim's choosing.

After than, sparring four students; two red belt, two black belt, and then sparring one master.

Its not an impossible test and there is a water break about halfway through. The test takes roughly two hours. It is more than enough to demonstrate proficiency in the art and not so much as to be 'over the top'. Master Kim isn't interested in having the toughest test in town. He is interested in having proficient blackbelt students who are a credit to the school.

Daniel

 

[Lynne]

In my opinion, like Andrew, I believe this is unsafe and a real problem.

I train pretty intensely on my own, my sessions generally run a couple of hours and my clothing is literally soaked with sweat when I'm done. I could wring out my shirt and the sweat would flow out of it. I typically drink a liter to a liter and a half during these session.

I also know that if I loaded up on this much water before the training, I'd feel waterlogged, and I'd need to pee about every 15 minutes or so, and when I started to train I'd also feel thirsty halfway thru anyway.

Depriving people of water or the opportunity to pee during a strenuous and demanding physical ordeal of this length is unsafe and downright stupid. If someone suffered some health problems because of it, it could also be criminally negligent. All it takes is one injury for the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.

I just hope I won't be that one injury. You know, I see people get dehydrated during our regular classes and they are only one hour long. They end up on their knees with their head hanging down or on their backs. That is their fault of course for not having hydrated throughout the day.

I don't know how one could get hydrated enough before a long test. Not to be indelicate, but we ladies to not have the fluid capacity that men do either.

Is this kind of testing, no water/no bathroom breaks, an older style of testing? That may explain things a little bit. Tradition. I did double check my facts last night and this is the way it is at our school.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just hope I won't be that one injury.

NO KIDDING!!!

You know, I see people get dehydrated during our regular classes and they are only one hour long. They end up on their knees with their head hanging down or on their backs. That is their fault of course for not having hydrated throughout the day.

it's not their fault for not having hydrated thru the day. It is true that many people in the US are chronically dehydrated. We like to drink coffee and sodas all day so we don't feel thirsty, but our bodies need simple water and many of us do not drink enough. Coffee and soda does not properly hydrate the way simple water does. But regardless of that, a lenthy physical ordeal, even for just an hour, can be enough to require rehydration. We sweat as a way of regulating our body temperature. When we exercise, our bodies heat up, and we sweat to keep from going into heat stroke. It's normal, it's critical, it must happen or we would have serious health problems every time we exercised or otherwise exerted ourselves. But sweating means we must replenish the lost fluid. When we are sweating profusely and regularly and over a period of time, we must be able to rehydrate, or we can suffer heat exhaustion, heat stroke, and even death. If the weather in your neck of the woods is particularly warm, it is further compounded, and the ability to rehydrate is even more important.

I don't know how one could get hydrated enough before a long test. Not to be indelicate, but we ladies to not have the fluid capacity that men do either.

for a 6 hour test, you cannot. For an hour, perhaps, but that could even be tough. But not for a six.

Not to be indelicate, but I've always been cursed with a quick urinary system. Seems like I pee a lot more than most people. Maybe I'm just properly hydrated and that's part of it while everyone else who doesn't pee so often is dehydrated. I dunno. But if someone told me they would disallow any opportunity to pee for 6 hours, I'd probably not do it. When you are exercising and sweating a lot, often you don't need to pee as much. But I cannot guarantee that I could go 6 hours without peeing. Maybe I'd insist that they agree to launder my gi and mop the floor after the test, 'cause where I'm standing, it's gonna need it. Wear a black gi, not a white one. Hides the stains...

Is this kind of testing, no water/no bathroom breaks, an older style of testing? That may explain things a little bit. Tradition. I did double check my facts last night and this is the way it is at our school.

I do not believe it has anything to do with tradition. I believe it is someone's misguided attempt to be tough and demanding and have a tough program. It's OK to push the students and help them rise to a higher level, one that they probably would not rise to on their own without a strong push. But some things are just dangerous and downright stupid to do. I think this, if it is indeed what you believe it is, could be one of those.

 

[Lynne]

I'm sitting here thinking what a weird thing it will be to worry more about dehydration and passing out than my TSD material.

I hope some more Masters/Senseis open up about their testing like Terry did. Maybe they can give us some perspective on why they require their students to undergo certain rigorous procedures during testing. Maybe there are some here who do not allow their students to have fluids also.

 

[Andrew Green]

That is their fault of course for not having hydrated throughout the day.

Partially, everyone is expected to look after themselves, they know how they feel. But if they feel they need water, or a break, then that is what they need.

It is also partially the instructor, who should be watching everyone else, if they are looking like they are getting dehydrated they should be told to get some water, if everyone is looking bad then class needs to switch gears to something less intense.

Safety is everyones responsibility in a class, it has to be, otherwise people get hurt. Staying properly hydrated is a safety issue, just like wearing proper equipment or applying joint locks in a controlled way. If someone is endangering themself or others someone, propbably the instructor, needs to correct the situation.

 

[IcemanSK]

There is usually a certain level of hazing that happens during "ordeal-type" upper belt tests, but safety needs to be utmost concern. After all, we want to keep folks around. Heck, even during marathons & triathalons they give you as much water as you want!

 

[tshadowchaser]

What the hell does a 2,3,4 hour test prove/accomplish? from reading this thread people obviously do them... but to what end?

Tests that last hours are about endurance, mental toughness, and showing that you will not stop or give in no matter what. It is part of the “OLD SCHOOL” thinking that a student testing for “X” rank must be able to show they will endure. No we are not training for “the last samurai” but who is to say where that student will be in the future ( maybe in a real war).
Some instructors want there students to be mentally tough to the point of the body is wanting to stop but the mind is taking over and keeping the body moving. Some of this training is not for everyone and some of it is for those special few that choose it.

As far as long tests go I know of one instructor that tested his Black Belt candidates for over 24 hours straight till only one was left on the floor. That one and no one else got promoted that day.
Is such testing for every one NO but there are those who have gone through it and those that will in the future. If a person dose not want to submit themselves to such test be they an four hour, a six hour, or a all day test it is for the individual to decide if the training is worth the test.