Tomoenage Anxiety Issues...

[Makalakumu]

I few years ago (God, I think this is more like 8 or 9) during randori, I was thrown with a sloppy tomoenagi and landed on my head. I went to the hospital in an ambulance because I couldn't feel my legs. It turns out that I did not break my neck, but the injury kept me from training for six months.

Currently, I am training in juijutsu and this throw still gives me the hebejebes. I'm working my breakfalls like a madman and I go to class and have some higher ranked students throw me tomoenage a few times. I come out just fine...the anxiety just doesn't go away. Especially during randori...

I'm kind of embarassed by this, because I get tense and want to avoid it and it seriously takes a calming breath and some serious willpower to let someone throw me with this throw. I wish that I could just feel "normal" about this...I don't know what to do???

 

[Gemini]

Don't be embarrassed, you're not alone. I had an instance about 6 years ago where I tore my abdomen throwing a dollyo chagi and to this day, can't (or won't) throw from my left site with full power. Wouldn't mind sticking around for suggestions.

 

[The Kai]

First, and I'm sure that you are way smart enough to know this. It is a normal, natural reaction. your body will remember the trauma.

I'm not a Judo tewacher but my 2Cents, when I teach how to fall i tell everybody"You cannot 2 guess the throw of your fall, let go and enjoy the ride"

You cannot fight a Stomach throw, there is to much weight pulling you forward. Well actually you can fight it, you will usally wind up landing face first. Trust your partner, let him start the circle as you complete the circle.
It is kind a weird feeling when you get tossed with this one

 

[arnisador]

I think this is a common concern even for those of us who have not suffered an injury. It's an unusual way to be thrown.

 

[Makalakumu]

I know that my feelings regarding this throw just aren't rational. In the days preceeding class, I tell myself that I've got nothing to worry about, but as soon as the prospect of taking that dive comes up, I really have to work to make the tenseness go away.

I'm still spooked about randori. I keep seeing my accident in my head and everytime I square off with a partner, the image takes my mind off of what I am doing. That alone is bad.

I've talked to my teacher, but he hasn't said much other then to let people throw me more with that throw for a while. Okay, its been quite a long time. I still feel anxious. Especially after having two kids.

Is there anyway to change this or is this type of fear something that I just need to endure as part of my training in juijutsu?

upnorthkyosa

 

[rmcpeek]

It's normal. I think that this will be something you have to endure for a while, but, I do have a question and maybe a suggestion.

How much work have you done on your breakfalls and rolls?

What you should be attempting to do when being thrown in Tomenage is to do a forward Judo roll. If you haven't practiced this much, work on it. You should always be tucking your head no matter how you're being thrown, and practicing the forward roll and keeping your head tucked might help you gain some confidence.

Rich

 

[Makalakumu]

It's normal. I think that this will be something you have to endure for a while, but, I do have a question and maybe a suggestion.

How much work have you done on your breakfalls and rolls?

What you should be attempting to do when being thrown in Tomenage is to do a forward Judo roll. If you haven't practiced this much, work on it. You should always be tucking your head no matter how you're being thrown, and practicing the forward roll and keeping your head tucked might help you gain some confidence.

Rich

I practice them all of the time. And I have people throw me with this throw frequently so I can try and break these issues. It's just spookey. That's all.

It might even be something that never goes away. I've always been told that fear is part of MA training. Perhaps this is my issue.

Does anyone else have any similar issues?

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah - me. I hate getting thrown with tomenagi. Interesting, because I've done dive-rolls and such. But the two kinds of throws I REALLY hate are the joint lock throws and tomenagi.

No idea on the cure ... do it a lot, I suppose.

 

[Paul B]

Good advice so far and....don't forget to extend your arm to meet the mat. Some people let the elbow fold and end up doing a decent roll,but not one I'd recommend for taking ukemi from Tomoe(or any strong throw,for that matter).

One method for taking a quick downward fall is to bring your extending arm "in" towards you,almost between your feet. It's really kinda like doing a handstand,actually,but it gives the feeling of a "right here and now" downward type of throw much better than the usual running roll or jumping roll. Tomoe projects you further "out" than many throws. Your body ends up in more of a vertical position before you *can* take ukemi,that's why I say "extend" your arm and practice these "meeting" type of falls. That's my 2 c's.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

If you still don't feel comfortable with that throw even after having it done on you safely for a while, maybe you could just ask your training partners not to use it?

 

[AikidoCal]

I hope this helps as I have a similar experience and I am no expert in throwing a tomoenage.

You would have to be a nut not to fear the throw. I think it was initially designed to have the uke land on his head. Well it if wasn't and you wanted to make the technique deadly, it isn't hard to do.

Let me assume the tori wasn't very skilled in the throw, thus the accident occurring. I am sure you are going to come across others who are just as unskilled. Therefore I recommend, because it helped me, not to assume that a person throwing me knows what they are doing. With that said when I practice ukemi I practice with that in mind. I never let my guard down.

I will assume the tori probably collapsed his arms during the throw. It is important that the head is tucked in enough to protect the head more. All too often I see people with their chin sticking out in the middle of being thrown. They are either looking at the tori's face or where they are looking at the place on the floor where they think they are going to land. Not good.

A ridged core/abs is without question, those abs really need to be contracted. Doing so helps with the rounding of the back, and allowing the head to tuck in tighter. Helping to proved the least amount of skull surface contact with the floor- when things go bad. Ideally you land across your should when thing go bad. Too often I see novices who arms lack the strength needed to support the body durring the throw. Rather the extention of the arms, like being half way through a push up. People who are experts at taking this fall don't put so much strength in the arms and they fool the novices into thinking the arms don't play a part in protecting you from the fall.

Something, I find important is when tomoenage is executed, as a protective measure (that is what ukemi is anyway), you push off the floor a bit as you start to go forward to get the height to clear the tori and roll away- when things go bad. Ideally, if things go bad and you don't clear the tori you have enough momentum in some circumstances to brake-fall or land on across the upper back shoulders below the base of the neck. This takes a bit of practice and timing to get right. It is like a dance lift very subtlely done. You don't want to launch yourself too much. Again something to practice. Take your time with it.
When practicing to take the tomoenage having extented arms, head tucked in good, rounded back/tighten core, and a bit of a push-off at the start will help in lessening injury. I would rather land on the back of my head when it is tucked in then on the crown of the head. And also do a lot of neck exercises to strengthen the neck muscles.

If tomoenage is exacuted correctly there is never a chance of injury. If everyone did perfect technique then there would be no reason for ukemi-considering the tori isn't out to kill you. But that is unrealistic.

To rap things up, I don't blame you for the reason the throw makes you uncomfortable. I am surprised, having a family, the leg numbness didn't have you stop martial arts. What I am suggesting is what I have done to avoid injury many times. It helped me. That is all I can say. Like I did, maybe find a good judo class that has a Judoka that is flawless in throwing i.e. tomoenage, and or they have real good ukemi and experience to help you fall safely when a throw is bad or goes bad. Personally, I can't think of any other art that pays so much attention to ukemi to the study and practice of ukemi and it's safety then a good judo dojo, I mean that is what the do, it is their niche.

Just sharing my experience, and hope it helps. Kudos to all.

 

[Makalakumu]

I hope this helps as I have a similar experience and I am no expert in throwing a tomoenage.

You would have to be a nut not to fear the throw. I think it was initially designed to have the uke land on his head. Well it if wasn't and you wanted to make the technique deadly, it isn't hard to do.

Let me assume the tori wasn't very skilled in the throw, thus the accident occurring. I am sure you are going to come across others who are just as unskilled. Therefore I recommend, because it helped me, not to assume that a person throwing me knows what they are doing. With that said when I practice ukemi I practice with that in mind. I never let my guard down.

I will assume the tori probably collapsed his arms during the throw. It is important that the head is tucked in enough to protect the head more. All too often I see people with their chin sticking out in the middle of being thrown. They are either looking at the tori's face or where they are looking at the place on the floor where they think they are going to land. Not good.

A ridged core/abs is without question, those abs really need to be contracted. Doing so helps with the rounding of the back, and allowing the head to tuck in tighter. Helping to proved the least amount of skull surface contact with the floor- when things go bad. Ideally you land across your should when thing go bad. Too often I see novices who arms lack the strength needed to support the body durring the throw. Rather the extention of the arms, like being half way through a push up. People who are experts at taking this fall don't put so much strength in the arms and they fool the novices into thinking the arms don't play a part in protecting you from the fall.

Something, I find important is when tomoenage is executed, as a protective measure (that is what ukemi is anyway), you push off the floor a bit as you start to go forward to get the height to clear the tori and roll away- when things go bad. Ideally, if things go bad and you don't clear the tori you have enough momentum in some circumstances to brake-fall or land on across the upper back shoulders below the base of the neck. This takes a bit of practice and timing to get right. It is like a dance lift very subtlely done. You don't want to launch yourself too much. Again something to practice. Take your time with it.
When practicing to take the tomoenage having extented arms, head tucked in good, rounded back/tighten core, and a bit of a push-off at the start will help in lessening injury. I would rather land on the back of my head when it is tucked in then on the crown of the head. And also do a lot of neck exercises to strengthen the neck muscles.

If tomoenage is exacuted correctly there is never a chance of injury. If everyone did perfect technique then there would be no reason for ukemi-considering the tori isn't out to kill you. But that is unrealistic.

To rap things up, I don't blame you for the reason the throw makes you uncomfortable. I am surprised, having a family, the leg numbness didn't have you stop martial arts. What I am suggesting is what I have done to avoid injury many times. It helped me. That is all I can say. Like I did, maybe find a good judo class that has a Judoka that is flawless in throwing i.e. tomoenage, and or they have real good ukemi and experience to help you fall safely when a throw is bad or goes bad. Personally, I can't think of any other art that pays so much attention to ukemi to the study and practice of ukemi and it's safety then a good judo dojo, I mean that is what the do, it is their niche.

Just sharing my experience, and hope it helps. Kudos to all.

Thanks for your post. It really bolsters my confidence with this nage. We practiced it last night and I think that talking about my fears has really helped me relax a little more. Also, I finally got the nerve to tell me teacher how I was feeling. He said much the same thing and he was able to help.

 

[Shogun]

The thing that we all can agree on is not to tense like you mentioned. easier said than done, though. I would try something similar to tomoe (yoko nagare sutemi nage) that isnt quite angled the way tomoe is. you'll get more comfotable in doing tomoe that way, and you wont have that built up stress.

 

[engrchic]

I had a similar (although not nearly as serious) experience with Tomoe Nage a little over a year ago. My fall went horribly awry and I ended up dislocating my kneecap. When I got back on the mat, I was TERRIFIED of taking the fall again. So, like you, I worked my high falls and had people I really trusted throw me so that I could feel comfortable again. As I moved on I started taking even higher falls from other throws, but was still uncomfortable with Tomoe Nage. In time I realized that the actual fall had nothing to do with my anxienty. My anxiety came from the memories of the pain and my confusion about what went wrong. So I started exploring the detailed mechanics of how I went over and eventually landed. As I worked though this, it forced me to deal with the brief period of time between thinking in midair "shouldn't I have hit the ground by now" and coming back into my body to realize that my kneecap had been on the wrong side of my knee a few moments earlier. I had repressed that period as an effort to put on a strong front and keep moving forward, but they only way to really move past it was to address it head on.