TKD has to be doing something right

[dancingalone]

Just open the yellow pages in your city. There are lots more TKD schools than anything else. Kung fu, silat, even karate run a distant second to tae kwon do. And generally, when you look further at the karate schools, a lot of them actually are TKD or TSD.

What's the reason for TKD's overwhelming popularity in the US? I'm really curious.

 

[Twin Fist]

be carefull of asking this question, the answer isnt very nice

 

[jks9199]

Successful and adaptive marketing.

Many TKD schools recognized a niche demographic, and filled it. I also think that, early on, more TKD schools tried to be a full time business for the instructors, rather than a side-line.

 

[Sukerkin]

. That is true, TF. Potential flames lick in the background of the question.

Dancing, be aware that if this thread attracts a lot of answers, some of them might say things about TKD that are far from your liking.

I know that you're not new here at MT so forgive me if this is redundant but if that situation arises then please use the RTM button rather than 'getting the knives out'.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks for the replies. I think some of you may be alluding to the existence of the McDojang, which is surely no surprise to anyone in the martial arts. I've moved around a lot in the US due to my career and have thus trained in more than my share of systems and styles, and I can attest at least anecdotally that all arts have this bugaboo, too; it's just that TKD is the most prominent and therefore gets the most attention.

To answer my own question, I think a big part of why TKD is so popular in the US is because of the large numbers of excellent instructors who emigrated to America and began teaching: S. Henry Cho, Jhoon Rhee, Kim Soo, Jack Hwang, etc. Similarly, tang soo do/soo bahk do is very popular because the founder, Hwang Kee, moved here.

I don't recall a similar concentrated wave of masters moving the US from karate, although certainly Seikichi Toguchi of Goju-ryu was a big factor in Canada and I know the JKA worked on establishing Shotokan roots in California. Aikido has had some seniors emigrate to our shores also, but again none of these other arts experienced anything like the wave of Korean instructors who came to teach TKD.

 

[exile]

Don't neglect the Olympic glitz factor, the sportification of what was once (and in some, but all too few, places still is) one of the hardest of the hard SD styles out, and the attendant marketing at kids—the 'Little Tigers'/after-school babysitting service that a lot of places offer. My impression is that karate, CMAs and other TMAs are represented much less in this market due to their lack of the Olympic connection.

The TKD masters you mentioned rank high amongst TMA practitioners for reasons which are probably not recognizable by TKD's core demographic. And the number of such instructors is extremely small, relative to the numbers of run-of-the-mill McDojang operators. Just ask Terry what it's like trying to compete as a high-quality, technically demanding traditional TKD school against massive franchise operations. Without the Olympic cachet, the latter sort of outfits would probably mostly fade away.

 

[dancingalone]

The TKD masters you mentioned rank high amongst TMA practitioners for reasons which are probably not recognizable by TKD's core demographic. And the number of such instructors is extremely small, relative to the numbers of run-of-the-mill McDojang operators. Just ask Terry what it's like trying to compete as a high-quality, technically demanding traditional TKD school against massive franchise operations. Without the Olympic cachet, the latter sort of outfits would probably mostly fade away.

This is just my anecdotal experience, but the vast majority of TKD players don't even know that Olympic competition exists. Their main exposure to tournament fighting is point sparring (tag). I don't doubt that Olympic glory factors in somehow in TKD's popularity, but I certainly haven't seen it for myself.

I would agree that many of today's TKD students don't know those names I listed above, but they surely know the name of their own instructor who might very well have studied with one of these illustrious gentlemen. For example, Jhoon Rhee's top student in Texas, Allen Steen, produced dozens of quality black belts in the seventies and eighties. Go to any studio in the southwest US today, and there's a decent chance that the instructor has a connection back to Mr. Rhee through Mr. Steen somehow. I bet similar degrees of separation exist for the other luminaries in their respective parts of the US.

 

[exile]

This is just my anecdotal experience, but the vast majority of TKD players don't even know that Olympic competition exists. Their main exposure to tournament fighting is point sparring (tag). I don't doubt that Olympic glory factors in somehow in TKD's popularity, but I certainly haven't seen it for myself.

I would agree that many of today's TKD students don't know those names I listed above, but they surely know the name of their own instructor who might very well have studied with one of these illustrious gentlemen. For example, Jhoon Rhee's top student in Texas, Allen Steen, produced dozens of quality black belts in the seventies and eighties. Go to any studio in the southwest US today, and there's a decent chance that the instructor has a connection back to Mr. Rhee through Mr. Steen somehow. I bet similar degrees of separation exist for the other luminaries in their respective parts of the US.

Oh, I don't doubt the lineage connections. But check out any number of McDojangs and you'll probably find equally illustrious connections amongst school owners, operators and instructors who operate on a belt-for-cash basis. I'm dubious about the notion that the overall quality of TKD instructruction is higher than that of other MTs to a degree that would give rise to the enormous statistical imbalance between, say, Muay Thai, Gojo-ryu or Southern Mantis kung-fu on the one hand and KKW TKD on the other. Media attention and awareness of TKD, based on its vast world competitive network (in turn based on its Olympic status) almost certainly plays a big part. When you're primarily known as a sport, you're going to get a lot of attention in popular culture—these days, anyway—that you otherwise wouldn't.

Here's a little example: when I go home to visit my mother on LI, the drive to Trader Joe's to buy groceries for her used to take me past Tiger Schulman's Karate. No more. A week and a bit more ago, making the drive once again, I had the horrible realization as I passed the block where it used to stand that Tiger Schulman's Karate was... no more. :waah:

But there's a silver lining here. Like a phoenix, in the place where ol' Tiger's house of pain used to stand, had miraculously risen in its place... Tiger Schulman's MMA. Astonishing, eh? Somehow, that wily Tiger had been way ahead of the curve and had spent years of study mastering the new MA which he foresaw would come to replace karate in the popular imagination. I mean, if he hadn't done that, how would he have become qualified to teach this totally, radically different new combative activity?

I suspect a lot of TMA places have retreaded themselves as MMA places, out of necessity: there is a lot of cultural awareness of MMA, much more than of Karate or the other arts I alluded to, because of media attention. And TKD has benefitted from that kind of media attention for a long, long time, as long as the news media have been aware of it as an Olympic activity. People may not be aware of the fine points of the Olympic events themselves over the past decade and a half, but—as you yourself note in the part I've bolded above—they are aware of TKD as a competitive sport, widely practiced. And that's largely because of the Olympic-based media publicity that TKD can command, and which the other TMAs I mentioned cannot. So while it may not be the whole story, I myself suspect that it's a big part of the whole story...

 

[jks9199]

Just open the yellow pages in your city. There are lots more TKD schools than anything else. Kung fu, silat, even karate run a distant second to tae kwon do. And generally, when you look further at the karate schools, a lot of them actually are TKD or TSD.

What's the reason for TKD's overwhelming popularity in the US? I'm really curious.

Oh, I don't doubt the lineage connections. But check out any number of McDojangs and you'll probably find equally illustrious connections amongst school owners, operators and instructors who operate on a belt-for-cash basis. I'm dubious about the notion that the overall quality of TKD instructruction is higher than that of other MTs to a degree that would give rise to the enormous statistical imbalance between, say, Muay Thai, Gojo-ryu or Southern Mantis kung-fu on the one hand and KKW TKD on the other. Media attention and awareness of TKD, based on its vast world competitive network (in turn based on its Olympic status) almost certainly plays a big part. When you're primarily known as a sport, you're going to get a lot of attention in popular culture—these days, anyway—that you otherwise wouldn't.

Here's a little example: when I go home to visit my mother on LI, the drive to Trader Joe's to buy groceries for her used to take me past Tiger Schulman's Karate. No more. A week and a bit more ago, making the drive once again, I had the horrible realization as I passed the block where it used to stand that Tiger Schulman's Karate was... no more. :waah:

But there's a silver lining here. Like a phoenix, in the place where ol' Tiger's house of pain used to stand, had miraculously risen in its place... Tiger Schulman's MMA. Astonishing, eh? Somehow, that wily Tiger had been way ahead of the curve and had spent years of study mastering the new MA which he foresaw would come to replace karate in the popular imagination. I mean, if he hadn't done that, how would he have become qualified to teach this totally, radically different new combative activity?

I suspect a lot of TMA places have retreaded themselves as MMA places, out of necessity: there is a lot of cultural awareness of MMA, much more than of Karate or the other arts I alluded to, because of media attention. And TKD has benefitted from that kind of media attention for a long, long time, as long as the news media have been aware of it as an Olympic activity. People may not be aware of the fine points of the Olympic events themselves over the past decade and a half, but—as you yourself note in the part I've bolded above—they are aware of TKD as a competitive sport, widely practiced. And that's largely because of the Olympic-based media publicity that TKD can command, and which the other TMAs I mentioned cannot. So while it may not be the whole story, I myself suspect that it's a big part of the whole story...

The original post and this one also beg another question...

Does commercial visibility and success really equal "most popular"? Does it even really measure popularity? Many of the commercial schools in my area, whatever the style (though TKD is predominant commercially), have a significant portion of their business tied to what amounts to day care services. Some allow parents to drop kids off before school, then they shuttle the kids to school, and pick them up later. They're commercial successes... but is it because their martial arts are popular, or because the service they provide is useful?

 

[Empty Hands]

Just open the yellow pages in your city. There are lots more TKD schools than anything else.

There are also far more McDonald's chains than family owned Italian places serving authentic, homemade cooking. Guess which one I prefer? Popularity has its price. Thankfully, not all of TKD has become McDonald's.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Why so many TKD studios? A large number of TKD studios are day-care.

Sorry, but the money is in the kids. That is where you keep the place running. And thus alot of TKD shops have kids galore. Not many adults will spend the time, or exercies, to become good at any martal art. A few will, but most won't and thus the money is in the kids!

Yes the instructors try to teach them, but come on, kids are kids and very few put more than .2 percent of their concentration on techniques. You see them do forms that, well, make you want to put a bag over your head.

Not saying there are some hot students for kids, some do. But the percentage is low.

Many parents just dump their kids off at the TKD place so they can have some free time. That and they feel the studio will give them sone discipline (which I guess the parents don't or won't at home themseves), and 'feel good' stuff about themselves (a term I hate.)

And that, i feel, is why TKD is so popular and there are so few other schools.

Deaf

 

[tellner]

Tiger Schulman's Karate was... no more. :waah:

But there's a silver lining here. Like a phoenix, in the place where ol' Tiger's house of pain used to stand, had miraculously risen in its place... Tiger Schulman's MMA.

Say it ain't so, Joe!

:barf:

 

[exile]

Say it ain't so, Joe!

:barf:

Alas, it's so... and probably not just at Tiger's.

 

[terryl965]

Well all I can say is this parents want little johnny to be a 7 year old BB and that is what made it properlar. Parents can live there lives though a child. I know I loose around 25-35 students every year to other school that will promote little Johnny faster than me and that is all right because in the end these parent need to ask one simple question what happens when little Johnny has to actually use his TKD and gets the holy crap out of him.

Exile is right and so is alot of other folks, steady and slow teaches proper techniques and give the best chance of surviving an actual attack.

 

[YoungMan]

My take on Taekwondo's popularity:

1. Taekwondo, beginning with Gen. Choi and continuing with the Kukkiwon, made a concerted effort to infiltrate every available market. Hundreds of Instructors, some good most......, came over from Korea with the express mission of teaching and promoting Taekwondo. They did this with the express support of the Korean gov't. My instructor was one of them many years ago.

2. Taekwondo has strongly marketed itself as a kid's/youth activity. This is NOT a result of Taekwondo inherently being fit for kids to practice. It is a result of money hungry instructors realizing that teaching kids is where the money is. Practically every Taekwondo ad and commercial markets itself as something beneficial for 5 year old kids. Why? That's where the money is.

3. I also think Taekwondo is so successful because it fits the image of what martial arts are about. Think about it. You see martial arts portrayed in movies and TV as this kick-*** activity that lets you jump in the air and take out three people. Taekwondo seems to be the art that fulfills the image of what martial arts are about for many people, especially since its demos are filled with examples of spectacular technique. What is more pleasing to the eye-a Taekwondo or a Shorin-ryu demo? I'm not knocking Shorin-ryu by the way.

I really don't think the Olympic connection provides the big marketing gimmick that generates Taekwondo's popularity. Most people who join realize they're never going to make the Olympics.

 

[Cirdan]

TKD sold out. Except for the rare true traditonal school it has become a commercial art, not a martial one.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just open the yellow pages in your city. There are lots more TKD schools than anything else. Kung fu, silat, even karate run a distant second to tae kwon do. And generally, when you look further at the karate schools, a lot of them actually are TKD or TSD.

What's the reason for TKD's overwhelming popularity in the US? I'm really curious.

A combination of strong efforts by early masters to spread the art, government support, olympic status, commercially savy school owners, and peripheral services that many such schools provide.

At the core of all this is a martial art that is effective and eye catching. Taekwondo has all of the flash that karate has, is called karate about a third of the time anyway.

I think that one big factor that I don't see mentioned on a lot of threads about this subject is that taekwondo is a relatively new art. Yes, I know that it has its basis in older fighting styles, but the name taekwondo is very recent in the history of martial arts. Karate got a free boost in name recognition in the US from returning servicemen who had picked it up while stationed overseas and began teaching it upon their return to the states. Taekwondo didn't have that to the same degree. Being the new kid on the block, so to speak, a lot of hard work went into establishing taekwondo as a viable equal to karate and other well established arts.

Of course, as any activity, no matter what it is or how essoteric it may start out being, begins to achieve the hoped for popularity, there will always be those who will sell out, truncate, or water it down in order to make it more profitable and more profitably replicable. Taekwondo is certainly not the only MA bedeviled by this problem.

Personally, I see the Tradition vs. McDojo thing as a bit like the conservative vs. liberal climate; the pendulum swings and countries gradually go from one end to the other as time goes by, with the times in the middle being the most true to the majority of the people. I believe that taekwondo will swing back to the traditional as taekwondo schools see that they're losing some of their customers to the rising popularity of MMA.

Just my thoughts.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

TKD sold out. Except for the rare true traditonal school it has become a commercial art, not a martial one.

While I see where you're coming from, I must politely disagree with you saying that taekwondo sold out. Taekwondo is still taekwondo.

It is those instructors and organization officials who are more concerned about business than they are with quality who have sold out, so to speak. The state of the major organizations is also not helpful and the WTF becoming one of the Olympic's many wives, while bringing some benefits, has certainly had an equally negative effect.

But none of that changes what taekwondo is. It does change whether or not taekwondo is truly being taught at many, many schools and the quality of the teaching.

It kind of comes down to 'whats in a name?'; just because you call it something, doesn't make it what you call it. Sadly, those of us in the 'rare ture traditional school' category cannot sue for trade infringment and make them call it something else.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Something I was told years ago about this subject:

If you watch Japanese or Okinawan karate, it is designed for short, somewhat squat people. The techniques are snapping, in close, and not really meant to cover distance. The Japanese tend to be shorter than us with a little different build. Their martial art works for them.

Koreans, I have been told, are more similar to us in terms of height, weight, and proportion. The end result is a martial art that, although it works for them in particular, also seems to work for us because of our physical similarities.
I have seen karate technique performed, and it just seems physically not built for us as Americans. Taekwondo technique seems more natural for our bodies, and I think that may also be a factor in its popularity here.

 

[exile]

Something I was told years ago about this subject:

If you watch Japanese or Okinawan karate, it is designed for short, somewhat squat people. The techniques are snapping, in close, and not really meant to cover distance. The Japanese tend to be shorter than us with a little different build. Their martial art works for them.

Koreans, I have been told, are more similar to us in terms of height, weight, and proportion. The end result is a martial art that, although it works for them in particular, also seems to work for us because of our physical similarities.
I have seen karate technique performed, and it just seems physically not built for us as Americans. Taekwondo technique seems more natural for our bodies, and I think that may also be a factor in its popularity here.

The difference in average height between Japanese and South Korea is roughly an inch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height). We have many Korean and several Japanese students in our graduate program in any given year, and over twenty years at OSU I've never seen any notable difference in body build beween our Japanese and Korean students. None of them have ever been squat. I just don't see the numbers supporting this supposed distinction.