TKD and kids

[Manny]

I've been practicing with the kids their poomsae for the next examination this weekend and I have some coments to say to you. Of all the kids doing poomsae only very few ( I can count them with my hand fingers) are doing it properly you know, with timing, good tech and with a strong martial art attitude.

The majority of the kids poomsae's are slopy, leazy or without care and I think this is not good enough for kids, they are more interested in kick the other's face or see who can do the things more quickly or to see who can do the tornado kick. This is sad because, how they can do a nice tornado kick if their sidekicks s $@·# s ?, how they can do a nice spining kick if they don't know how to clinch a fist and hit hard.

Believe me the poomsae of the kids are poor in performance, and I am talking of children from 8 to 15, beacuse the young studs (15 and above) do their poomsae if not 100% properly at leat they show strong attitude and nice blocks and kicks.

Sorry to share this with you maybe I am a little paranoid.

Manny

 

[terryl965]

Manny than as you are one of the instructors it is up to you to explain the important of doing them with proper techniques and power. It is time for you to step up as a instructor and do what your instructor is forgetting.

 

[dancingalone]

Young children can have good form practices. I couldn't find the video of the two Japanese kids who were full of snap and precision, but I stumbled across this one of a 11-year old boy going through a 20 hour black belt exam. He didn't look half bad executing his kata and bunkai given it was about 11 hours into the test. Skip to 4:10 and you'll see him obviously tired but still giving it his best effort.

[yt]JICKH4BUQAU[/yt]

 

[granfire]

Some do, most don't (sharp moves)

It's a combination of things, lack of muscle tone, lack of discipline or poor understanding. Most who do sloppy forms are also not very good in sparring.

I think - from my limited experience - there is no connection between forms and application. The form is a dance, the application is another animal.

maybe time to get the soft blocker and hand target out to make things known as viable technique.

I think it really is an age problem though. I find that once the kids get a little older they understand the concept of 'putting muscle into it' a lot better.

 

[dancingalone]

I think - from my limited experience - there is no connection between forms and application. The form is a dance, the application is another animal.

There is a huge correlation but you have to teach it and drill it. There are many knifehand strikes in the various karate and taekwondo patterns (as well as instructions on where to strike with them!), yet knifehands are never permitted in typical sparring. Meanwhile, they can be one of the most damaging strikes in one's arsenal if applied to the correct targets around the neck and throat area. They're also the beginnings to a whole series of take downs based on directing pressure to the opponent's head or shoulder...

Credible forms practice is not just a matter of performing the pattern. You must take each movement individually and drill them with a partner from a variety of angles, speeds, and attacks.

 

[granfire]

There is a huge correlation but you have to teach it and drill it. There are many knifehand strikes in the various karate and taekwondo patterns (as well as instructions on where to strike with them!), yet knifehands are never permitted in typical sparring. Meanwhile, they can be one of the most damaging strikes in one's arsenal if applied to the correct targets around the neck and throat area. They're also the beginnings to a whole series of take downs based on directing pressure to the opponent's head or shoulder...

Credible forms practice is not just a matter of performing the pattern. You must take each movement individually and drill them with a partner from a variety of angles, speeds, and attacks.

I should have said 'for the kids'

Thank you for making my point.

 

[dancingalone]

I should have said 'for the kids'

Thank you for making my point.

Hmm, from the kid angle...

There's enough videos floating around to show that kids can perform forms to a high standard. If a child isn't up to snuff, it's simply because he lacks the desire to better himself, and the instructor lacks the inclination to hold his student to a higher standard.

I'm with Manny. I can excuse a lot of things, but lack of effort isn't one of them.

I guess the trick is to find the ones who merely are missing some focus or some athletic development and coach them to be better. Not much one can do with the ones who flat out aren't trying.

 

[granfire]

Hmm, from the kid angle...

There's enough videos floating around to show that kids can perform forms to a high standard. If a child isn't up to snuff, it's simply because he lacks the desire to better himself, and the instructor lacks the inclination to hold his student to a higher standard.

I'm with Manny. I can excuse a lot of things, but lack of effort isn't one of them.

I guess the trick is to find the ones who merely are missing some focus or some athletic development and coach them to be better. Not much one can do with the ones who flat out aren't trying.

Well, since you have the hard core school, I am the elementary teacher.

A lot of these kids just don't know where their body is in relation to space. It's a sign of the times. I don't know how other parts of the world are, but here unfortunately anything that carries risk is possitively suspect. I am glad my kid has PE every day. But like I had as kid, recess with relatively unsupervised fun and games in the school yard - no such luck.

Not to mention that many of these kids are there because the parents drop them off and they are not kicking and screaming about having to do that TKD stuff.

So you make due with what you got, trying to explain what it is. Or one steps, trying to keep the Uke from zoning out :lol:

Some kids just don't have it. Never ever. But maybe they learned enough to not get bullied on the play ground for being - well - not tough.

 

[dancingalone]

Well, since you have the hard core school, I am the elementary teacher.

Oh, no value judgment implied in my previous post. Please don't take it as a criticism.

A lot of these kids just don't know where their body is in relation to space. It's a sign of the times. I don't know how other parts of the world are, but here unfortunately anything that carries risk is possitively suspect. I am glad my kid has PE every day. But like I had as kid, recess with relatively unsupervised fun and games in the school yard - no such luck.

Yep. 'Progress' is not always a good thing. As a kid I learned pretty quickly not to be mouthy and if I chose to be, I'd better be able to back it up with my fists if need be. Those type of life lessons are flagrantly missing for many children growing up today.

Not to mention that many of these kids are there because the parents drop them off and they are not kicking and screaming about having to do that TKD stuff.

So you make due with what you got, trying to explain what it is. Or one steps, trying to keep the Uke from zoning out :lol:

Sigh. What an infamy. You must be a very patient person, Granfire.

Some kids just don't have it. Never ever. But maybe they learned enough to not get bullied on the play ground for being - well - not tough.

One hopes. I'm envisioning Napoleon Dynamite.

It's a shame because the kind of children who are enrolled in youth taekwondo or karate classes are frequently those who need it. It's too bad if they don't take advantage of the opportunity to grow comfortable in their bodies and thus gain some confidence from it.

 

[ATC]

Well all I can say is that I have been to the Korean Hamnadang and the kids 8 - 15 were off the chain with their poomsae. I was really impressed. I thought my kids were good until I saw the Korean kids.

We took 4 of our best students (always place in any US tournament) to the Hamnadang and only one made top 10 for their group. One other got as high as 12th (My daughter). The other two didn't even come close (my son was one). The one that made top 10 placed just that, 10th.

It was eye opening to say the least. However that is all they do. I was told that in Korea you have two paths, Poomsae or Kyorugi. As far as competition is concerned.

 

[granfire]

Oh, no value judgment implied in my previous post. Please don't take it as a criticism.

No, we are cool. I think we came to that agreement a long time ago

Yep. 'Progress' is not always a good thing. As a kid I learned pretty quickly not to be mouthy and if I chose to be, I'd better be able to back it up with my fists if need be. Those type of life lessons are flagrantly missing for many children growing up today.

shucks, a pick up game of tag or 'red rover' is out of the question, a fight gets you into HUGE trouble...

Sigh. What an infamy. You must be a very patient person, Granfire.

yes, some days are more interesting than others. it's a challenge I enjoy actually.

One hopes. I'm envisioning Napoleon Dynamite.

It's a shame because the kind of children who are enrolled in youth taekwondo or karate classes are frequently those who need it. It's too bad if they don't take advantage of the opportunity to grow comfortable in their bodies and thus gain some confidence from it.

LOL, I know. But those are the kids that just don't have it in their make up. So we try harder and hope they stick around and eventually get that light bulb moment.

 

[Tez3]

The only children I've had who didn't try were the ones who didn't want to be there but were made to be by parents. They didn't usually last too long before the poor kids were moved onto the next activity deemed by parents to be the next big thing.
I've always found children to be more curious than the adults so they want to know what the movements in katas are for, we do spend a lot of time working through that. To my mind kata/forms/patterns etc should never ever be taught in isolation as a 'dance' always the bunkai should be there too. to often though the katas are taught as just movements to be done either for a competition or grading instead of what they are really for. I'm passionate about that and hopefully it shows when I teach. Good kata means better fighters!

 

[granfire]

The only children I've had who didn't try were the ones who didn't want to be there but were made to be by parents. They didn't usually last too long before the poor kids were moved onto the next activity deemed by parents to be the next big thing.
I've always found children to be more curious than the adults so they want to know what the movements in katas are for, we do spend a lot of time working through that. To my mind kata/forms/patterns etc should never ever be taught in isolation as a 'dance' always the bunkai should be there too. to often though the katas are taught as just movements to be done either for a competition or grading instead of what they are really for. I'm passionate about that and hopefully it shows when I teach. Good kata means better fighters!

For some reason I place you near the frigid north, if not in then near Scotland. Personally being from Germany, I sometimes bang my head against the wall of all the things I took for granted and that are just a no-go over here in the states. There is a huge amount of fear or everything and ever present posibilities of law suits, how ever frivolous.

Kids just have little chance to be kids any more. Get out of the house and see things for them selves, not predigested by school. I think that influences the desire to learn and experience. But I could be wrong.

At my Mother's house you can open the doors and let the kids go. They can actually see some nature, compared to a lawn next to a lawn (viva suburbia)

I don't see a lot of curiosity in the kids in this area.

How are things in your neck of the woods?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've been practicing with the kids their poomsae for the next examination this weekend and I have some coments to say to you. Of all the kids doing poomsae only very few ( I can count them with my hand fingers) are doing it properly you know, with timing, good tech and with a strong martial art attitude.

The majority of the kids poomsae's are slopy, leazy or without care and I think this is not good enough for kids, they are more interested in kick the other's face or see who can do the things more quickly or to see who can do the tornado kick. This is sad because, how they can do a nice tornado kick if their sidekicks s $@·# s ?, how they can do a nice spining kick if they don't know how to clinch a fist and hit hard.

Believe me the poomsae of the kids are poor in performance, and I am talking of children from 8 to 15, beacuse the young studs (15 and above) do their poomsae if not 100% properly at leat they show strong attitude and nice blocks and kicks.

Sorry to share this with you maybe I am a little paranoid.

Manny

Those kids wouldn't be their at all if it weren't for the COOL stuff; so, just teach to the brighter kids and hope the rest will follow. You can't go home with them, but you can demand and attitude adjustment at the door.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

For some reason I place you near the frigid north, if not in then near Scotland. Personally being from Germany, I sometimes bang my head against the wall of all the things I took for granted and that are just a no-go over here in the states. There is a huge amount of fear or everything and ever present posibilities of law suits, how ever frivolous.

Kids just have little chance to be kids any more. Get out of the house and see things for them selves, not predigested by school. I think that influences the desire to learn and experience. But I could be wrong.

At my Mother's house you can open the doors and let the kids go. They can actually see some nature, compared to a lawn next to a lawn (viva suburbia)

I don't see a lot of curiosity in the kids in this area.

How are things in your neck of the woods?

Very cold, we are in the middle of blizzards so frozen north isn't bad! I'm here, I live in Catterick Garrison though which is part of Richmond. !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_North_Yorkshire

Children here do go out to play, it's actually a very safe area, today with the snow there's been no school so all the children have been out in it playing and having great fun, we have a lot of hills so sledging was the favourite thing to do today.
We have large childrens playgrounds plus playing fields for soccer, cricket and golf etc. Up in the Dales the kids mostly live in small villages or farms so everyone knows everyone else and the kids can be out all day with no one worrying. They all know to stay off the army ranges when the flags are flying which means shooting. Most kids up in the Dales can shoot too as well as drive from a very early age. When I ran a playgroup I had a 4 year old telling all about artificial insemination for their cows!

We don't have a lot of the law suit stuff from parents but some schools seem to go a bit doolally over safety despite government guidelines telling people that children should have some 'danger' to make them well rounded.

The children I teach are mostly forces children who are well travelled and have seen a fair bit of the world. theri parents probably because they are adventurous themselves let the kids play out, fight and play all sorts of games.

We are really a fighting club ( not sparring lol) and the kids while they dont go full out ...because we won't let them... do seem to enjoy the quite hard physical side, the girls too. Actually the girls do more than the boys lol! Sometimes the clubs pro fighters will come and teach and be beaten up by the kids, everyone loves that.

 

[dancingalone]

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I'm now envisioning Tez as a female version of James Herriot.

 

[Tez3]

^
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I'm now envisioning Tez as a female version of James Herriot.

LOL, dons rubber gloves and approaches from the rear a very fearful cow!


His son Jim still practices in the same place in Thirsk, next town along from us. In many ways life hasn't changed much in Dales from the things you'll have seen in the films and read in the books. the kids have computers, etc but they still get out making dens and helping on the farms. City life alas is very different.

 

[granfire]

Very cold, we are in the middle of blizzards so frozen north isn't bad! I'm here, I live in Catterick Garrison though which is part of Richmond. !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_North_Yorkshire

Children here do go out to play, it's actually a very safe area, today with the snow there's been no school so all the children have been out in it playing and having great fun, we have a lot of hills so sledging was the favourite thing to do today.
We have large childrens playgrounds plus playing fields for soccer, cricket and golf etc. Up in the Dales the kids mostly live in small villages or farms so everyone knows everyone else and the kids can be out all day with no one worrying. They all know to stay off the army ranges when the flags are flying which means shooting. Most kids up in the Dales can shoot too as well as drive from a very early age. When I ran a playgroup I had a 4 year old telling all about artificial insemination for their cows!

We don't have a lot of the law suit stuff from parents but some schools seem to go a bit doolally over safety despite government guidelines telling people that children should have some 'danger' to make them well rounded.

The children I teach are mostly forces children who are well travelled and have seen a fair bit of the world. theri parents probably because they are adventurous themselves let the kids play out, fight and play all sorts of games.

We are really a fighting club ( not sparring lol) and the kids while they dont go full out ...because we won't let them... do seem to enjoy the quite hard physical side, the girls too. Actually the girls do more than the boys lol! Sometimes the clubs pro fighters will come and teach and be beaten up by the kids, everyone loves that.

Sounds like heaven!

 

[Tez3]

Sounds like heaven! [/quote

It has it's moments but life is hard up in the Dales still but it beats a lot of other places lol!

Manny, do you enjoy teaching the children? It's an acquired taste not everyone does and childen are very quick to pick up on things like that. If you have great passion for what you do they will catch it and be much easier to teach and more likely to try harder.

 

[terryl965]

I never blame the child, most just do what they are told to. So when I see childern do a poomsae bad it is two things either the instructor or the parents, one of them have no sense of measure for the child and believe it is just something for them to do.