Timed poomsae, hyung, tul, ...forms

[IcemanSK]

I recently read in GM Son's book "Korean Karate" from 1968. In it he mentions that the form Pal Sek (Bassai Dai) is to be performed within a certain time period (I believe it's 35 seconds). My GM has the same time "limit" on Yun Bi (Empi). This was a first for me. I had never heard of setting a time period that a form needs to be performed within. This would present a unique challenge in performing the form. Ones that I'm not particularly fond of.

Does your instructor, school, organization, etc have a time period in which a form is to be performed? Is it a "hard & fast" rule or is it a guideline/ recommendation?

 

[Windsinger]

AFAIK, there are no time limits on patterns at my school. Our sabum nim has told us before that he doesn't care (within reason, of course) how long it takes us to do our patterns. He'd rather see power and technique over speed. Of course, if you can do them well and fast, well, that's just a bonus.

 

[miguksaram]

I recently read in GM Son's book "Korean Karate" from 1968. In it he mentions that the form Pal Sek (Bassai Dai) is to be performed within a certain time period (I believe it's 35 seconds). My GM has the same time "limit" on Yun Bi (Empi). This was a first for me. I had never heard of setting a time period that a form needs to be performed within. This would present a unique challenge in performing the form. Ones that I'm not particularly fond of.

Does your instructor, school, organization, etc have a time period in which a form is to be performed? Is it a "hard & fast" rule or is it a guideline/ recommendation?

My current instructor does not do this but my TSD instructor did time us on Bassai Dai. I wouldn't mind doing some sort of time limit on the rest of the forms for fun and as a training method to build endurance.

 

[TKDHermit]

my instructor told me that each movement has to be done whole, emphasis is on power and full movement i.e. chambering and execution, viewability, and not rushing through the form for 'speed', the only speed required is from the chamber position to the end of the technique. judging is based on accuracy and presentation. lotsa subsections under those 2 main reqs but i cant rmb. anw we're doing taegeuks anw so its not exactly the same thing i guess=\

 

[dancingalone]

Passai/Bassai should be performed briskly. One of the purposes of the form is to teach explosion after all. I don't bother timing myself or my students, but there's definitely an internal metronome ticking in my head.

Form should indeed be highlighted before speed, but that goes without saying. Passai is learned around the brown belt/1st Dan stage in most systems. It's presumed that a student will have the proper grounding and snap before attempting passai. This form will really tell the pretenders from the ones who really do have the stuff.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm an ITFer and have never heard that tul should be performed in a certain time period. Usually, debates in ITF circles revolve around how slow, for example, slow motion motions are or how breathing syncs up with consecutive motions (ahh, what fun). But these are debates about how specific individual techniques should be timed, not patterns in gerenal.

On the other hand, I trained at a WTF club for a couple of years in college and the instructor there said each pattern should be one minute in length, which seemed odd to me as that means Chon-Ji is going to last the same amount of time as Koryo (he did both Chang Hun and Kukkiwon patterns).

Pax,

Chris

 

[YoungMan]

Taebaek is to be performed vey fast, as per Hae Man Park's guidelines.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm an ITFer and have never heard that tul should be performed in a certain time period. Usually, debates in ITF circles revolve around how slow, for example, slow motion motions are or how breathing syncs up with consecutive motions (ahh, what fun). But these are debates about how specific individual techniques should be timed, not patterns in gerenal.

On the other hand, I trained at a WTF club for a couple of years in college and the instructor there said each pattern should be one minute in length, which seemed odd to me as that means Chon-Ji is going to last the same amount of time as Koryo (he did both Chang Hun and Kukkiwon patterns).

Pax,

Chris

This is what I'm more familier with myself. In ITF, it's usually not about the length of the actual form, but the amount of time spent in concentration of techniques within the form.

I can't speak for any other styles, but on some forms, I like to really let my technique show by taking a reasonable amount of time in performing the form. I don't take forever, by any means, but I think that it lends power and precision to certain forms to perform them slightly slower and with exaggerated technique.

But that's just me.

 

[Tez3]

You'd have to go some to get through Bassai in 35 seconds surely! There's over 40 movements in the one we do so you'd have less than a second for each one to be done well!

 

[KELLYG]

I've never heard of them having a "time limit". I do mine with enough time laps to show each technique and to lock out stances but any slower then it seems like you are searching for the next move. Each technique is not equal in time span, certain areas of each will have a different rhythm.
It's interesting to think about though!

 

[IcemanSK]

More than one of you have mentioned that they've heard of Bassai Dai (Pal Sek) as being a timed form. Does anyone know (or have an educated guess) why it is often timed? What purpose might it serve to time it?

 

[Tez3]

More than one of you have mentioned that they've heard of Bassai Dai (Pal Sek) as being a timed form. Does anyone know (or have an educated guess) why it is often timed? What purpose might it serve to time it?

Because if you have a few doing it for grading and they all take their time the pubs will be shut when they've finished?

Seriously, I've never heard of any form or kata being timed. I'm wandering too what the point would be.

 

[dancingalone]

More than one of you have mentioned that they've heard of Bassai Dai (Pal Sek) as being a timed form. Does anyone know (or have an educated guess) why it is often timed? What purpose might it serve to time it?

I mentioned my reason above although I don't time with a handwatch myself. It's because Passai is an entry level form into the 'advanced' level of karate practice and because it is supposed to teach explosion. If you can't complete passai in a brisk fashion with good form, you simply haven't developed dan level skills yet, and some remedial work with the pinan kata is needed along with more kihon practice. Passai is a 'benchmark' form in that respect.

 

[Tez3]

I mentioned my reason above although I don't time with a handwatch myself. It's because Passai is an entry level form into the 'advanced' level of karate practice and because it is supposed to teach explosion. If you can't complete passai in a brisk fashion with good form, you simply haven't developed dan level skills yet, and some remedial work with the pinan kata is needed along with more kihon practice. Passai is a 'benchmark' form in that respect.

Brisk yes, running like hell no surely?

 

[dancingalone]

You are correct, Tez. Not running. Someone threw out 35 seconds. That does seem too fast to me. Such an arbitrary time frame doesn't account for individual build or physiology. The point is passai is supposed to look and feel snappy and explosive.

 

[IcemanSK]

You are correct, Tez. Not running. Someone threw out 35 seconds. That does seem too fast to me. Such an arbitrary time frame doesn't account for individual build or physiology. The point is passai is supposed to look and feel snappy and explosive.

I got 35 seconds from GM Son's book. It does seem an abitrary number. Why 35 seconds? Part of difficulty in seeing the logic behind timing a form in this way is that it would take all the enjoyment & SD qualities out of it for me. I'd be "chasing the clock" & not really focused on the form itself.

 

[Tez3]

I got 35 seconds from GM Son's book. It does seem an abitrary number. Why 35 seconds? Part of difficulty in seeing the logic behind timing a form in this way is that it would take all the enjoyment & SD qualities out of it for me. I'd be "chasing the clock" & not really focused on the form itself.

It would look like a speeded up film lol!
Sometimes for a bit of fun and to change things a bit we do the first kata speeded up with the children, it makes them laugh to see how fast they can go but you really can't do it seriously at a fast rate and do it properly. You can only do it to lighten things up after a period of concentration with the kids. ( I work on carrot and stick principle with kids lol, hard work, bit of fun, hard work, bit of fun!)

 

[Kacey]

Placing a time limit on forms is something I'm not particularly familiar with... and I can't see how an arbitrary time limit will improve performance. We do change timing around for particular training reasons - doing a form as fast as possible shows if a person knows it or not, while doing a form slowly forces a person to work on timing within each movement, and so on.

 

[YoungMan]

It depends entirely on what the form is trying to accomplish. For a WTF form like Keumgang and its emphasis on isometric power and powerful mountain blocks in horseback stance, a time limit would be impractical. Mountains have been around for millions of years.
For a form like Taebaek, on the other hand, with its demonstration of bird-like speed, it needs to be done quickly because birds are fast. To do otherwise defeats the purpose.