Tim Bathurst, Jamie MacAninch, Duncan Stewart

[unitedwestand]

HI all,

Any info on who their Australian instructors were, if applicable.

Trying to trace the lineage. I'll probably hear it was Wayne Roy for all of them, but if anyone can share any contrary info that'd be great.

Best training,

 

[Dean Whittle]

I'm not too sure about Tim Bathurst, because he's been around a while, but I'm reasonable confident that Jamie MacAninch and Duncan Stewart were not direct students of Wayne Roy.

With respect

 

[blink13]

Paging Chris Parker... paging Chris Parker....

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, I can't really add too much beyond Deans comments. As to Tim Bathurst, he started in 1986 at about the age of 17, and travelled to Japan in 1990 (21). Who he trained with in Australia, I'm not sure, but you could always email him yourself (contact details on his website).

One question I do have, though, unitedwestand, is about your wording. You say that "I'll probably hear it was Wayne Roy for all of them, but if anyone can share any contrary info that'd be great." Can I ask why it would be great if they didn't train under Wayne Roy in your eyes? You seem to be asking a fair bit about the histories of senior Bujinkan teachers in Australia, but there is no location in your profile, and the various people you are asking about are fairly scattered across the country here (Tim is in Melbourne, Jamie I believe is in Queensland, others in Western Australia, or South Australia.... ), so are you looking to begin training in a Bujinkan school and are just getting the history straight before you do?

If so, then the history is less important than the skill level of the instructor in question and how well they can transmit that to their students. If you require a direct line to Hatsumi, then go with a Bujinkan school. If not, then look at other options. But the location thing will determine who is available to you in the first place.

 

[unitedwestand]

Thanks for the repsonses guys.

Chris, history is what I love, be it Bujinkan, Ba Gua, war, art .... anything and everything history l love it!

I love (sounds weird) lineage, and seeing people's different paths to what I believe leads very much to a similar, if not the same result.

I do think you may have misunderstood my question, or maybe I incorrectly expressed it which is more plausible - I meant that it is very likely that Wayne Roy taught these guys, which, if is the case, is a testament to him. If he did not however, it would be great (appreciated ) if someone can tell me who they learnt from.

If that makes more sense. It wouldn't matter if they had learned from Mike Hammond, Ed Lomax or Dale Seago. It's great that they are doing something which hopefully betters themselves, they enjoy and can mitigate harm to their loved ones.

I am in a place called Albany at the moment, which is in WA.

I am (and for no good reason other than personal satisfaction and interest) trying to piece together who has trained from who, who has trained who, who has trained with who, what states etc etc.

No harm intended and I don't think I have caused any, and I know that's not what you are saying. Hope clears up a tad. Any info about any of the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan Australian guys would be great!

Cheers

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, cool. Yeah, I seem to get the history bug myself (shocked gasps from everyone else, I know...) so I can relate to that.

In terms of Genbukan, the first school was in Sydney (still is), and was headed by Damien Martin from memory. He was originally a follower of Kazuo Saito and his "Iga Ryu Ninjutsu" organisation (holding myself back there....), but eventually sought out Tanemura Sensei and the Genbukan. Last I heard he was in Japan, and the dojo (Sekiei Dojo) was left under Roy Wilkins. The bigger school, though, is in Brisbane, and is called the Nanzan Dojo. It is under the guidance of Gordon Simmonds and Robert Tierney, who may have trained with us (I haven't met them from memory, though) from the way their website is worded. They also have a study group in Melbourne, although not a full dojo. The Nanzan Dojo is linked directly with the Tokyo Dojo and Roy Ron Sensei I believe.

As for Jinenkan, the only official presence in Australia that I am aware of is a group in Melbourne headed by Maurizio Mandarino, Sandan, and goes under the name Sessa Takuma Dojo. Maurizio (Morris) I think has also headed back to Japan at the moment, but I think the group is still going. Before that there was a loose study group.

That's it for Jinenkan and Genbukan here, though, unfortunately nothing in WA at all at the moment. But, to even things out, you have the only available source for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, something that I am incredibly interested in. So maybe it all evens out...

 

[unitedwestand]

Thanks for that....very insightful.

Hmmmm,

You've got me started again. I remember reading about and seeing a picture of a video of Kazuo Saito ---front cover had him in blue pants I'll research that art some more too.

As for the latter art in WA? I have never heard of this, maybe this is Kevin Hawthorn's?

It's not Shihan John Ang Ninja-Kai.

Cheers guys, much helped.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this could take a while. To begin with, don't bother with Saito's group, or Angs, or Kevin's. Without invoking this sites fraudbusting rules, there is no reason for you to even consider these groups if you are after anything even closely related to Ninjutsu or Japans Ninja. Okay? Cool.

Now to the fun stuff.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is one of the most respected and oldest Koryu in Japan (Koryu are the old systems, predating the Meiji Restoration of 1862). It was founded (according to tradition) in 1447 by Iizasa Choi-sai Ienao (he took the name Choi-sai later in life, a not uncommon practice. Takamatsu Sensei was known by a number of names, originally being born Hidetsuna, and taking Toshitsugu later, Hatsumi's original pronunciation of his given name was Yoshiaki, later Masaaki, Tanemura was originally Tanemura Tsunehisa, later Tanemura Shoto). Iizasa was a highly skilled practitioner of a number of existing systems at the time, including being the 7th head of the Muso Jikiden Ryu Yawaragi (Jujutsu), and practicing a sword art known as hitotsu no tachi, or the solitary sword.

According to the tradition, Iizasa spent 1000 days training and meditating at the sacred Katori Shrine (both the Katori Shrine and it's related Kashima Shrine were near to where he was stationed) at the age of 60, and afterwards, while he slept, the Guardian Deity of the Katori Shrine, Futsunushi no Mikoto appeared to him in a dream, and presented Iizasa with a scroll detailing the secret principles of swordsmanship, called the Mokuroku Heiho no Shinsho. With this newly acquired knowledge, Iizasa went on to found the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (The School of the Heavenly True and Correctly Transmitted Style of the Katori Shrine).

The main focus of the school is Kenjutsu, but being a Sogo Bujutsu, or composite martial system, it also encompasses many other weapons and teachings, including Bojutsu, Naginatajutsu, Sojutsu (spear), Kodachijutsu (short sword), Ryotojutsu (two swords), Shurikenjutsu (spike throwing), Yawaragi (jujutsu), Iaijutsu (sword drawing), and more esoteric forms of knowledge such as battlefield tactics, castle fortification, spiritual teachings, and ninjutsu, which in the Katori Shinto Ryu refers to methods of espionage.

A major aspect of it's approach to it's training (which is entirely in kata form, predominantly paired, except for the Iai, which is solo) is based on a revolutionary concept (in it's day, at least). In the kata, which could be made up of up to 20 movements on each side, Iizasa utilised a method in which the Uke-Tachi (recieving sword partner) would substitute his sword for the particular body part the Shidachi was striking to. So what often appears to outsiders as a blocking action is really a device employed to allow the combat to continue, and to allow the partners to experience full contact, restisted blows safely with relatively heavy wooden weapons (even more important when dealing with items such as Naginata).

The school has been a major influence on many other systems over the centuries, including systems such as Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu, the founder of which, Muso Gonnosuke, said to be the only person ever to defeat the legendary Musashi in a duel (although that story is only recorded in some versions of the Shinto Muso Ryu histories), was a Menkyo Kaiden (full mastership licence) holder in Katori Shinto Ryu, and the related Kashima Shinryu. It has also produced some of the greatest swordsman in Japans history, probably none more famous or skilled than Bokuden Tsukehara, founder of Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu.

Katori Shinto Ryu has continued to be passed down over the last 500+ years within the same herditary line, with the current Soke being Iizasa Yasusada, the 20th Head of the Ryu. Due to health reasons, he is not able to be the head instructor for the Ryu, and has authorised Otake Risuke as Shihanke, or Head Technical Teacher for the system. In the Ryu proper, only those who have a link to Otake Sensei are considered a part of the Ryu itself, and therefore studying the art.

In order to join the school, you are required to take Keppan, which is a blood oath, invoking the wrath of the Katori and Kahsima deities should you break your vows. There were originally 4 rules that were adhered to without variation, but the last three have been more relaxed in recent times, leading to a raise in popularity. The rules were:

1: Admittance in restricted to those prepared to take Keppan and pay the associated Dojo fees.
2: Foreign students must reside in Japan.
3: Upon leaving Japan, foreign students must not teach the art in any way.
4: If learning Katori Shinto Ryu, no other martial arts may be practiced.

One of the very first foreign students was Donn Draeger, also Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso Ryu, and he was responsible for popularising the art. He studied under Otake Sensei.

There is another branch of the Ryu, though, known as the Sugino-ha. The Sugino Dojo didn't enforce these rules, nor require Keppan to be taken, so it has spread further faster, and is more accessible to more students around the world.

This has lead to a bit of controversy, as under the authority of the Soke, Otake Sensei authorised Sugino Yoshio as an Instructor within the Ryu, however Sugino Shihan died in 1998, and his students are not connected with Otake Sensei or Iizasa Soke. This technically means they are not a part of the Ryu itself, and are therefore by definition not able to claim to be studying the art, even though Sugino Shihan's son has taken over the mantle of Dojocho for his fathers school, and they teach the exact same curriculum (with only tiny differences, such as the Otake line having their hips more square-on than the Sugino-ha, and the weapons in the Sugino Dojo-lines being a timy bit smaller due to Sugino's slightly smaller stature than Otake's). Sugino Sensei was also an incredibly highly skilled practitioner, and served as a technical advisor and fight choreographer for Kurosawa's films "The Seven Samurai", "The Hidden Fortress", and a few others.

The group in WA is linked to the Sugino Dojo in Japan.

This is probably one of the best, if not the best, Koryu videos I have ever seen.

(Follow the links for parts 2 through to 4, it's definately worth it!).

It features Otake Shihan going through the majority of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu's Omote Kata, or the "outer" techniques. Without the actual instruction by someone who really knows these kata, you will never actually get what the lessons are, and these are also only the "outer" techniques, or the public face of the art. This is what is shown to the general public, the "true" system is kept for initiates only.

Okay, that was a bit off-topic, I know, but if you are interested in history, and interested in the Japanese Martial Traditions, you really do need to know about TSKSR. It's almost blasphemous to not do so....

 

[Dean Whittle]

In relation to the history of the Bujinkan in Australasia, there was a guy in NZ a few years ago who was putting together a document on the introduction and spread of the Buj in the area, we communicated for a while but then he went silent. I found out later his computer crashed and because he did backup his files he lost everything.

As an aside, it's my understanding that the Sugino-ha lineage is being brought into the KSR mainline, and Instructors and their students are being offered Keppan if they travel to Japan and train with Otake-sensei.

With respect

 

[unitedwestand]

Wow...thanks for the informative info Chris. Good vids indeed. Love it.

Also thanks to Dean, very good to hear you guys talk freely about an art.

Off topic again, I like what I see from Jan De Jong (RIP) style too. That's enough from me I think in this topic or we'll go on for hours....or months

:O

 

[Chris Parker]

As an aside, it's my understanding that the Sugino-ha lineage is being brought into the KSR mainline, and Instructors and their students are being offered Keppan if they travel to Japan and train with Otake-sensei.

Yes, I believe the first was Erik Louw from The Netherlands. Caused a bit of confusion for a while, as he was cited as being a part of both the Sugino-ha and the Otake Dojo at the same time... he is definatively a part of the Otake lineage at present. A few years ago it became available for practitioners to take Keppan with Otake Sensei (and I believe also with his son, who is being groomed to take over the Shihanke role) when they travelled abroad to teach. Members of the Sugino Dojos were permitted to join the mainline at those opportunities.