thoughts on Xingyiquan

[oaktree]

I have been practicing Xingyiquan with a partner. Xingyiquan is not my main art but I am working with them and they are working with me for my Baguazhang. As a Baguazhang guy I always think that the line of attack or engagement
the opponent will always be stronger, faster, more skilled and by evasion, stepping off the line, angling I have a better chance to attack successfully. I have been wondering how Xingyiquan deals with an opponent who is stronger, faster and I guess is either a boxer or another Xingyiquan person. Does the Xingyiquan person try to read the opponent and react faster? Does the Xingyiquan person follow the WuXing sequence of attack defend?

 

[Blaze Dragon]

I have been practicing Xingyiquan with a partner. Xingyiquan is not my main art but I am working with them and they are working with me for my Baguazhang. As a Baguazhang guy I always think that the line of attack or engagement
the opponent will always be stronger, faster, more skilled and by evasion, stepping off the line, angling I have a better chance to attack successfully. I have been wondering how Xingyiquan deals with an opponent who is stronger, faster and I guess is either a boxer or another Xingyiquan person. Does the Xingyiquan person try to read the opponent and react faster? Does the Xingyiquan person follow the WuXing sequence of attack defend?

Hi, so at my particular school we train with Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi. I want to say that up front so you know where I'm coming from. I've had discussions with others that feel if you don't specialize in only one style you will not have the foundation necessary for using that style. I can see strong arguments for this. However as mentioned we do train in all three and I feel like we are doing well.

The way I understand Xingyi from my training is that the size and strength are not a factor. The attacks are using the power of there attack against them. As to speed I think it comes down to out smarting just like other arts. As to the wuxing at least at my school we do train the cycle of creation and destruction with the elements. However we also do animals. So xingyi to xingyi there are methods of defeating an attack, however in a live fight I would image there wouldn't be thinking but reaction.

I would also like to say I have never used xingyi in fighting, or tournament. My exposure so far as been in forms and technique only at this time.

 

[blindsage]

I have been practicing Xingyiquan with a partner. Xingyiquan is not my main art but I am working with them and they are working with me for my Baguazhang. As a Baguazhang guy I always think that the line of attack or engagement
the opponent will always be stronger, faster, more skilled and by evasion, stepping off the line, angling I have a better chance to attack successfully. I have been wondering how Xingyiquan deals with an opponent who is stronger, faster and I guess is either a boxer or another Xingyiquan person. Does the Xingyiquan person try to read the opponent and react faster? Does the Xingyiquan person follow the WuXing sequence of attack defend?

I think the question is set up wrong oaktree. If the opponent is stronger, faster AND more skilled, I'm not really sure what system is going to work for you. You're pretty much done for. I think the key to both Bagua and Xingyi is that you want to be more skilled regardless. Bagua doesn't just evade, it can be direct if the opportunity is there. Just the same, although Xingyi seems to be just straight forward and slamming through the opponent, it stills gets there through things like stepping off line and angling. Both Bagua and Xingyi have methods for sticking and moving through or around an opponents guard. Bagua isn't all evasion, Xingyi isn't all plowing through.

Actually, I can't wait for Xue Sheng to chime in on this.

 

[oaktree]

Maybe the question is set up wrong. I tend to error on the side
Of caution in that my mindset is that my opponent will be faster stronger
And maybe more skilled. It might be a logic fallacy to think how can
You defeat some thing better then you.

I know bagua zhang can be done on the line of attack if presented,
In the palm changes some have straight attack movements depending
On the style and of course the 64 set.
Maybe my stubbornness needs to work more on using bagua zhang
On a straight line instead of getting off the line and evading.
To me I feel that being on the line I am meeting force with force,
And being off the line I am changing instead of meeting force with force.

Back to xingyiquan if I do say piquan off the line I feel as
If I am doing a bagua zhang palm rise and fall. I suppose they both have
Similar mechanics. Another thing I wonder about xingyiquan,
The intent is to go through a person which is power but power
Requires alot of energy the more energy needed to generate more
Power the slower the moment would have to be. Xing yi seems to sacrifice
Speed for power, as there can not be an equal distribution kinda of like
Having a heavy weight Olympic runner. In no way am I saying xingyiquan
Is slow but it does make me wonder about other straight line
Arts like jkd and wing chun who are the opposite distribution then xingyiquan.

Should xingyiquan be modified to fit a more modern approach
In that in real fighting traditional santi is disregarded and a more
Modern stance taken(krav maga, jkd, army combative)

I value all opinions on this and critical thinking I know I may be
Way off maybe something I am missing.
I know xue sheng will think I am a heretic speaking blasphemy
And xue sheng trained in jkd wing chun Xing yi and bagua
So I guess he is the Xing yi gospel.
I await for the roasting of bagua zhang thread lol.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First we need to understand that there is always someone who is stronger, or faster, or more skilled, or luckier but we need to not think about that at all because if you do, when confronted, you will lose because if nothing else the other guy was luckier because you were distracted.

Now Bagua and XIngyi

Basically I think you are looking at the Xingyiquan forms from the mile high view or as an unchangeable painting on the wall or something set in stone. The Wuxingquan progression is a training tool and not to be thought of as a real world application, although in the right circumstances it could be used as trained but that would be incredibly rare.

All the forms in Xingyiquan can evade, step off the line, and angle, they can all go backwards too. It is just when they do this, unlike Bagua that when it evades steps off the line, angles or avoids, it is evading, stepping off the line, anglings or avoiding. Xingyiquan when it evades steps off the line, angles or avoids is attacking, attacking, attacking, attacking, and attacking. That is where xingyi gets the reputation of not backing up because even when it does back up…it attacks

I feel a mistake a lot make in training Xingyiquan is they first learn piquan, zuanquan, bengquan , paoquan, and hengquan individually and then they learn the linking form and never revisit piquan, zuanquan, bengquan , paoquan, and hengquan as separate forms. You need to work with all the five elements by themselves actually you will get more out of the elements if you do work with them individually. They do not always go straight, they do not always angle the same, they do not always go forward. You need to figure out how they angle, avoid, backup and when they do this how they stay Xingyiquan, meaning how they stay aggressive and attack (and if done right it is not slow and it can be JKD fast). Also another mistake I see is the adherence to the sequence in the linking form the start at piquan then zuanquan then bengquan then paoquan, and finish with hengquan and never EVER change it. You need to mix those up in order to be able to respond to what comes at you and “not” get stuck in the pattern because recognizable patterns will get you hurt in a fight, after one is really comfortable with the 5 elements linking form….change it work at training.

hengquan, zuanquan, piquan, bengquan, hengquan and paoquan or any other combination you come up with.

Another problem I see is people never work with piquan, zuanquan, bengquan , paoquan, and hengquan on a heavy bag. I have seen Novell Bell do this and I think part of what he is doing is good, you need to know how to apply the forms when you cannot move but another part is hitting a heavy bag while moving the form. If you can hit the bag, with power, and maintain good Xingyiquan structure you are not only finding where the power of Xingyiquan comes form but you are also “TRULY” testing your Santi Shi. Also stand in front of the bag at the proper distance, not in Santi but parallel to it and hit it using the fists piquan, zuanquan, bengquan , paoquan, and hengquan over and over again and DO NOT tie your breathing to it. DO NOT exhale when you strike, just breath normally, relax, find your root the connectivity and just stand there and hit the bag. And with this you do not move your feet, just your arms.

A lot, A WHOLE LOT, of Xingyiquan training is by yourself, repetitive dull and boring but the results, IMO, are very worth it, but it is not for everyone, it is not pretty to look at, it takes time to see resaults and the real training of it hurts... sometimes a lot.

Also although I have very limited training in the 12 or 10 animals (depending on style and lineage) all of the above need to be applied to the animal forms as well.

The saying is that after about 2 years of proper training in Xingyi you can defend yourself but that is still at a mingjen (beginner) level there is a lot more to learn after that and even though Xingyiquan looks very simplistic, don’t let it fool you because it is not. There is a lot more going on internally in Xingyiquan that the external view of it would lead you to believe.

Another aspect you are missing, it is not all “your power” in a traditional looking Xingyiquan attack. You are moving forward towards the opponent, he is moving forward towards you. The idea, in that case with Piquan is he continues to move and you get to santi and all your momentum goes into the opponent and all the opponents momentum meets santi and your forward force has just been increased by the opponents force. Basically he ran head long into a truck that hit its brakes. The trucks energy will still transfer to the person that ran head long into it if they connect at the right time. But with Piquan, done right there is a trick. It is a downwards, forwards and slightly upwards strike…in that order. But that is high level stuff from my understanding and for most of us it is just downwards and forwards., However the other hand, the none striking hand, has its uses too, as do all non-striking hands in the forms. And in combination, in piquan, it can cause severe and protracted pain or worse so I will not go into any detail here.

As to Santi Shi, my opinion has changed a bit over the years. Yes I do think it is basic, yes I do think it is necessary and important to learn it and train it to understand XIngyi in application but I no longer feel it is necessary to stand in it for hours a day. To me it is better to get proper training it Santi, proper structure, and then move it against something heavy. If you can hit something, not fall over because you over committed or not fall backwards from the recoil and still move the heavy bag you are, IMO, gaining a much better understanding of Santi Shi than you will gain by standing in it for 20 minutes per side, per day for 20 years.

Should Xingyiquan be modified to fit a more modern approach, In that in real fighting traditional santi is disregarded and a more, Modern stance taken (krav maga, jkd, army combative)?

The answer is no. Train Xingyiquan properly with some of what I posted above, understand that it is not a quick fix or easy to learn. Except it will take a while, likely a lifetime and then train Xingyiquan don’t worry about the rest. There was a guy I saw a film of who teaches Xingyiquan in Beijing and I really liked what he said when he was correcting a student doing tuishou. “Xingyi is for fighting, it is not a dance” Sadly many train the dance and believe they are training for fighting, based on Xingyiquan reputation, and never realize they are just dancing.

If you want to fit a more modern approach and learn to fight really fast and not put in a whole lot of time then train krav maga, jkd, army combative, sanda. If you want to learn Xingyiquan then learn Xingyiquan and train it correctly. Also never forget, Xingyiquan was an army combative once, unlike Bagua or Taijiquan. But I will say I think it is easy to become too reliant on Santi Shi form a traditional POV and I think if one becomes to dependent on the static posture it will at some point, early in the training, cause problems with rooting and becoming double weighted. Santi is important but it needs to move and you need to learn how to move it. As for a more modern stance for fighting, train xingyi right and long enough and you will see it is already there, and the best example of that I have seen recently is in a video on Youtube done by Novell Bell working a heavy bag with Xingyiquan. But don’t forget that xingyi ia aggressive and has no problem with first strikes (preventative strikes ) so you need to get from point A (where you are) to point B (where the other guy is) and if you do it right and move santi correctly with proper structure and alignment, and maintain it, you will hit him, fast, and hard and he will fall down and then you don’t need the other stance. But in the event that does not happen or evades you need to understand how piquan, zuanquan, bengquan , paoquan, and hengquan work when you can’t move too

Xingyiquan, more than most arts I have trained, loves to hit hard, fast and once and move on to the next guy if needed and it does that based on moving Santi properly. However that does not mean that it cannot stand there and duke it ouf if it needs too without Santi, because it can.

 

[oaktree]

Thanks xue sheng I knew that to get the best stuff
Ask am addict haha
I will play with those things you mentioned and look
At xingyiquan from a different angle no pun intended.

I learned wuxing and linking but never went to in depth
So maybe now I'll look into it deeper.
I hear if you hang out with addicts enough you become one too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks xue sheng I knew that to get the best stuff
Ask am addict haha
I will play with those things you mentioned and look
At xingyiquan from a different angle no pun intended.

I learned wuxing and linking but never went to in depth
So maybe now I'll look into it deeper.
I hear if you hang out with addicts enough you become one too.

An individual's social environment also influences addiction risk :uhyeah:

 

[blindsage]

Hey, Xue about those Novell Bell heavy bag videos, they bother me a little. I feel like he's turning Xingyi into boxing the way he works the heavy bag. Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like a heavy bag isn't the best Xingyi training tool. What am I missing?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey, Xue about those Novell Bell heavy bag videos, they bother me a little. I feel like he's turning Xingyi into boxing the way he works the heavy bag. Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like a heavy bag isn't the best Xingyi training tool. What am I missing?

First I could demo all this better than type it but since we are in opposite corners of the country...I guess I wil have to type it


The heavy bag is, IMO, a great training tool for Xingyiquan. If you are going to move from santi to santi in anyone of the 5 elements for purposes of application and maintain structure and hit properly you need to move it and hit something of substance. If you don't and only depend on form or a target pad you get no return to your forward momentum and you never feel what it is like when something is in front of you that can actually stop you. Therefore you do not know if your structure is solid or is your root is correct and the first time you hit something you may be over committing and loose power or you are hitting late or you may be hitting early or, what happened to me, you are hitting correctly but your structure is a bit off and you lose your root because now there is something in your way that is there to stop you. But it can be anything comparable to a heavy bag too, however, for this, I do not recommend a tree OK...maybe for the feel parallel stike training :EG: but that it I swear :uhyeah:

However before working with a heavy bag you need to have a good santi and understand the 5 element forms. You don’t do piquan a couple of times and then go hit a heavy bag. You need to have good form first and then see if it holds up.

Same with standing with feet parallel and using the elements against a heavy bag, you get the feel of what it is like to hit something and you will feel where the force goes and where it comes from. I got a lot of drills from my second sifu that were damn good, I did not like his 5 elements form but the drills were very helpful. But again you need to work with the forms first. But ultimately what Xingyiquan does best is hit and you need to hit something big, heavy and hard to get a feel for how it will work

Novell Bell is using the 5 elements in a way that is Xingyiquan and yes it looks like boxing but it is still piquan, zuanquan, bengquan, paoquan, and hengquan used in a way that you hope you never have to use it in Xingyiquan, but it is good to know and you cannot get hung up on “how it looks” because there are some great lessons there. The first time I saw it I thought “boxing” and as strange as this sounds the second time I saw it, after my short trip down the JKD path, I thought nope that is Xingyiquan. He also has a video out there showing how Xingyi works in attack against another guy of another style but it degrades into the two of them fooling around because they are old friends. It is cool to see but if he stayed serious a bit longer you would get more out of it. But back to the heavy bag, Xingyi and Novell Bell, the best of the 5 elements to see this is still Xingyi is paoquan (it is in JKD too but they will never admit it, but it is s front stance). Try moving Piquan against the bag and hit the bag. Then think what would I do if the guy didn’t fall or threw a punch? There are more than a few that have their blocking arm in the wrong position when doing piquan, some of those make you face/head/armpit/ribs an easy target. Xingyi can stand and fight but I will say that unlike Novell Bell, I tend to maintain the santi back stance when I do it and to me that is a very easy stance to move forward, backwards at an angle, and even sideways

Santi is important and it is the foundation but I believe that focusing on santi shi stance training and never moving it against something like a heavy bag you will never really understand how santi is supposed to work and why us crazy xingyi guys say it is the “foundation” and you never understand how to work with it in action when something can return some of your force.

Some things I forgot to mention in my previous post to train

Full step bengquan really needs to be trained, and Piquan with fists instead of palms (Di Gouyong says that is what it originally was) and alternate step on all of the 5 elements meaning instead of right leg and right hand forward you do left and right hand forward and still move santi. Not the preferable way to do it but you need to know how to do it just in case that is where you end up.

I think we all get a little hung up on our version of what “traditional” is and think what we see is exactly how it must be or stay and we forget there have been multiple variations on all of the elements for years and different styles have different ways to train them. My hengquan is different then what I see most do. Most I have seen are using it as a side fist (top of the fist) strike. Mine is a trap or grab and a punch at the ribs or arm pit. Or it could be a takedown and it is still traditional.

Now as hard as you guys are trying to get me off wagon and get addicted to Xingyiquan again...and I admit I was touch and go earlier today, I’m a still a taijiquan guy… that is all..