This doesn't make sense in Muay Thai

[Jared Traveler]

Some counter intuitive and counter cultural things about Muay Thai make me scratch my head.

First of a feet . Feet are offensive in Thailand, you NEVER wear shoes in doors, you don't step over people and you don't even point your foot casually at other people. This is all offensive. YET in Muay Thai (the national sport) you literally kick each other.

You put your foot on someone else's face. It's offense to even touch someone's face, but in Muay Thai you smash their face with your foot.

Also, head position. You bow to your superior, and to your senior. Putting your head above someone else's means you think you are more important than them. In Muay Thai, you clinch and forcefully bring their head lower than yours. Also breaking their posture, which is a big deal.

Muay Thai, the most popular Sport seems to break all the social rules. Including being bear chested, which is not common in Thailand at all.

Somehow being a sport the celebrate causing your opponent to lose face in so many ways. But everyone is smiling and friendly.

 

[skribs]

This is pretty much true of all martial arts, that you do things in the ring that aren't appropriate outside of the ring.

 

[Holmejr]

Kinda like love your neighbor, after you knock them out…

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kinda like love your neighbor, after you knock them out…

Or like playing COD. Down players first and then say you're friendly lol

 

[Jared Traveler]

This is pretty much true of all martial arts, that you do things in the ring that aren't appropriate outside of the ring.

To an extent yes, to a larger extent not really. If in any given social situation if someone tries to hit you, it's pretty socially acceptable to hit him back. I think a case could be made for this regarding the tactic of ground and pound. But largely sports hold to fair play, which is very much part of the Western guilt innocence culture. If you were able to sneak in weapons, keep people in the spine, and do things like that I think that would be very countercultural.

I understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not trying to diminish it. I'm only pointing out that Western combat sports are largely in line with Western ideas on how to handle violence. Whereas placing your foot on someone's face in Thailand, or forcibly dragging their head below yours is a disgrace and any other social setting that is not easily understood by westerners.

I'm included in that, I barely have a handle on Asian culture. More like the tip of the iceberg that I'm trying to understand.

 

[skribs]

To an extent yes, to a larger extent not really. If in any given social situation if someone tries to hit you, it's pretty socially acceptable to hit him back. I think a case could be made for this regarding the tactic of ground and pound. But largely sports hold to fair play, which is very much part of the Western guilt innocence culture. If you were able to sneak in weapons, keep people in the spine, and do things like that I think that would be very countercultural.

I understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not trying to diminish it. I'm only pointing out that Western combat sports are largely in line with Western ideas on how to handle violence. Whereas placing your foot on someone's face in Thailand, or forcibly dragging their head below yours is a disgrace and any other social setting that is not easily understood by westerners.

I'm included in that, I barely have a handle on Asian culture. More like the tip of the iceberg that I'm trying to understand.

Asian martial arts have you bow. This is seen as a sign of worship (instead of respect) in many monotheistic cultures, but Christians don't have a problem bowing in Taekwondo or BJJ. (I realize BJJ is South American, but you get my point).

When I did wrestling, it was fashionable for boys to wear baggy clothing and not fashionable for boys to be in that close contact with each other.

And while yes, it is generally considered okay to hit back, someone in the fight has to swing first.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Asian martial arts have you bow. This is seen as a sign of worship (instead of respect) in many monotheistic cultures, but Christians don't have a problem bowing in Taekwondo or BJJ. (I realize BJJ is South American, but you get my point).

When I did wrestling, it was fashionable for boys to wear baggy clothing and not fashionable for boys to be in that close contact with each other.

And while yes, it is generally considered okay to hit back, someone in the fight has to swing first.

Help me understand the first point you are making?

Regarding the second point, I don't know where you're from in the US, but where I'm from if genuinely you believe someone is about to hit you, it's certainly socially acceptable to hit them first. Actually it's legal if you can articulate it. I don't see that as countercultural, although like agree it's on the fringe.

 

[skribs]

Regarding the second point, I don't know where you're from in the US, but where I'm from if genuinely you believe someone is about to hit you, it's certainly socially acceptable to hit them first. Actually it's legal if you can articulate it. I don't see that as countercultural, although like agree it's on the fringe.

In Thailand, if you are attacked, is it taboo to kick them or clinch them, or do people use their Muay Thai skills to defend themselves?

I think what's happening here (and I could be wrong) is you have some general rules of thumb on what is considered polite and impolite in Thailand, but are applying it across the board with no nuance.

Different situations are going to have different sensibilities for how you behave, dress, etc. You wear different things to the gym than to work than to a fancy party. You have different rules when having breakfast with your brothers than you do when eating out at an expensive restaurant.

I would be very, very surprised if every social rule in Thailand applied everywhere in every situation.

 

[Jared Traveler]

In Thailand, if you are attacked, is it taboo to kick them or clinch them, or do people use their Muay Thai skills to defend themselves?

I think what's happening here (and I could be wrong) is you have some general rules of thumb on what is considered polite and impolite in Thailand, but are applying it across the board with no nuance.

Different situations are going to have different sensibilities for how you behave, dress, etc. You wear different things to the gym than to work than to a fancy party. You have different rules when having breakfast with your brothers than you do when eating out at an expensive restaurant.

I would be very, very surprised if every social rule in Thailand applied everywhere in every situation.

Or perhaps it reflects the way the Thais view victory. In other words injuring them is not enough, it needs to be done with their feet and dragging their head down.

 

[skribs]

Or perhaps it reflects the way the Thais view victory. In other words injuring them is not enough, it needs to be done with their feet and dragging their head down.

I think you're reading too much into it. Muay Thai is a sport, and often in sports you forego other cultural norms if necessary to do the sport.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think you're reading too much into it. Muay Thai is a sport, and often in sports you forego other cultural norms if necessary to do the sport.

Noted.

 

[skribs]

Something that's very easy to do when you are learning about another culture is to assume that what you learn about the culture applies universally. It's something you should be careful of. For example, in martial arts, it's typical to look at a picture or video from another martial art and assume that's the entire art. It would be like watching a Muay Thai video on elbow strikes and criticizing Muay Thai for not having kicks or punches, because all I've ever seen of the art is that video with elbow strikes.

That example may seem silly, but there are plenty of posts on this website that criticize other martial arts because of a certain technique that's probably 1% of what the art teaches, but its treated as if its the entire art. For example, I look at Taekwondo videos and know that each video doesn't represent the entirety of Taekwondo, but then I look at a Muay Thai video and I assume that one video is all Muay Thai has to offer? It's a bit disingenuous.

The same thing happens with other cultures. It's easy to look at another culture through the lens of bite-sized pieces of information. But it doesn't really work like that. Your home country (the US in my case) has a rich culture with lots of different people and perspectives, which you've been exposed to over your whole life. Why wouldn't it be the same for other countries?

IMO, it's a good idea to assume that other cultures are as rich and varied as ours. That there are people who are traditional, people who are progressive, people with different beliefs on other spectrums. What you want to try to avoid is assuming that people from another country are simpler than you or I.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Something that's very easy to do when you are learning about another culture is to assume that what you learn about the culture applies universally. It's something you should be careful of. For example, in martial arts, it's typical to look at a picture or video from another martial art and assume that's the entire art. It would be like watching a Muay Thai video on elbow strikes and criticizing Muay Thai for not having kicks or punches, because all I've ever seen of the art is that video with elbow strikes.

That example may seem silly, but there are plenty of posts on this website that criticize other martial arts because of a certain technique that's probably 1% of what the art teaches, but its treated as if its the entire art. For example, I look at Taekwondo videos and know that each video doesn't represent the entirety of Taekwondo, but then I look at a Muay Thai video and I assume that one video is all Muay Thai has to offer? It's a bit disingenuous.

The same thing happens with other cultures. It's easy to look at another culture through the lens of bite-sized pieces of information. But it doesn't really work like that. Your home country (the US in my case) has a rich culture with lots of different people and perspectives, which you've been exposed to over your whole life. Why wouldn't it be the same for other countries?

IMO, it's a good idea to assume that other cultures are as rich and varied as ours. That there are people who are traditional, people who are progressive, people with different beliefs on other spectrums. What you want to try to avoid is assuming that people from another country are simpler than you or I.

Actually I bring this topic up because someone who has lived and trained here much longer than me explained a lot of this too me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some counter intuitive and counter cultural things about Muay Thai make me scratch my head.

Different MA maintain different culture flavor.

In Chinese wrestling, people respect those who plays offense and lose than those who plays defense and win. The Chinese wrestling wants to promote "acting like a tiger and eat your opponent alive". The spirit is attack, attack, and still attack.

Whether this kind of attitude fit into the modern society or not can be a diffenent discussion.

 

[angelariz]

Some counter intuitive and counter cultural things about Muay Thai make me scratch my head.

First of a feet . Feet are offensive in Thailand, you NEVER wear shoes in doors, you don't step over people and you don't even point your foot casually at other people. This is all offensive. YET in Muay Thai (the national sport) you literally kick each other.

You put your foot on someone else's face. It's offense to even touch someone's face, but in Muay Thai you smash their face with your foot.

Also, head position. You bow to your superior, and to your senior. Putting your head above someone else's means you think you are more important than them. In Muay Thai, you clinch and forcefully bring their head lower than yours. Also breaking their posture, which is a big deal.

Muay Thai, the most popular Sport seems to break all the social rules. Including being bear chested, which is not common in Thailand at all.

Somehow being a sport the celebrate causing your opponent to lose face in so many ways. But everyone is smiling and friendly.

Learning to be humble is one of the first lessons I picked up after training with Nok Muay.