The weight problem

[Littlebuddy]

Hey,
Ive been thinking about learning some form of martial arts/self defense system recently. I have zero experience and therefore tons of questions which is why I decided to sign up here. Im currently just gathering some information, as I wont start some sort of training in the next few months anyway. So far, picking up some kind of martial arts as a hobby is simply an idea that is appealing to me.

My two main goals are: 1) to have fun and 2) to learn something that can effectively be used in a variety of realistic scenarios. I am aware that most martial arts can help you in dangerous situations, yet I assume that some are only effective in certain "perfect" conditions which limits their effectiveness.

Now something that I stumbled upon multiple times during my research and that makes me rather hesitant to actually being some sort of training is the statement that a person trained in martial arts will most likely lose a fight against someone who doesent have any martial arts experience but weighs ~22lbs more.
With a height of 5'8" and a weight of 160lbs (110lbs 6 months ago, if im realistic its safe to say that i wont reach 177lbs with my body-type) im a relatively small guy and judging from the statement above not even good martial art skills would help me enough in a lot of potential encounters.

Having said that, I know that self-defense isnt necessarily about "winning a fight" but about getting out of a dangerous situation unharmed. However, buying yourself (and/or the person youre with) some time to flee the scene might not always be an option.

Basically Id like to ask for your opinion on what someone like me can expect from learning martial arts.
If the best bet is to just run away vs most attackers I can just as well dedicate my full time to become a great sprinter

Furthermore, if I decide to learn martial arts: Which one would, in your opinion, be better suited for small guys? And even though practice(and thus time) makes perfect, another thing to consider is that I am 25years old, so something that takes a decade of practicing in order to learn the basics might not be too efficient for me either.

So thats it for my first post. I hope I didnt miss some kind of stickied topic like "Small people read this:"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Now something that I stumbled upon multiple times during my research and that makes me rather hesitant to actually being some sort of training is the statement that a person trained in martial arts will most likely lose a fight against someone who doesent have any martial arts experience but weighs ~22lbs more.

I don't know where you got that statement from, but it's pretty much meaningless. "A person trained in martial arts" could include anything from an uncoordinated couch potato who has casually trained at the local McDojo two hours per week for six months (and who might very likely lose a fight to a larger untrained opponent) to Royce Gracie (who has defeated trained fighters who were 40, 80, or even 340 pounds heavier).

The bottom line is this: in a real fight, size matters. So does skill, speed, strength, agility, aggression, determination, awareness, technique, tactics, weaponry, etc, etc. If you are at a disadvantage in one area, you need to make it up in another.

Martial arts training won't increase your size. However, depending on what and how you train, it may improve your
skill
agility
strength
endurance
physical and mental toughness
fighting spirit
tactical awareness
and much more which may help you in a fight.

Whether and how much it improves any of those things is a function of what you train, how well it is taught, and the quantity and quality of the work you put into your training.

 

[geezer]

Hey,
Ive been thinking about learning some form of martial arts/self defense system ...I wont start some sort of training in the next few months anyway.

My two main goals are: 1) to have fun and 2) to learn something that can effectively be used in a variety of realistic scenarios. :"

Find a good instructor at a good school, put out a good effort and you will have fun, you will develop physically and mentally, and you will be better able to deal with confrontations.

On the other hand you can continue to think about it for a few more months, consider all the reasons why it's pointless, and you will accomplish nothing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

a person trained in martial arts will most likely lose a fight against someone who doesent have any martial arts experience but weighs ~22lbs more.

Hmm then I should be able to easily defeat Rengang Wang, my Sanda sifu, my taiji sifu, my last XIngyiquan sifu and my daughters Aikido Sensei. and I think my JKD teacher and I were about the same weight... so it should be a draw.

and the only think keeping me from testing this theory is I do not think my health insurance covers acts of stupidity.

I don't know where you got that from but IMO it is rather silly

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know where you got that statement from, but it's pretty much meaningless. "A person trained in martial arts" could include anything from an uncoordinated couch potato who has casually trained at the local McDojo two hours per week for six months (and who might very likely lose a fight to a larger untrained opponent) to Royce Gracie (who has defeated trained fighters who were 40, 80, or even 340 pounds heavier).

Something I should add on to this is that "someone who doesent have any martial arts experience but weighs ~22lbs more" could also mean anything from an obese senior citizen with crippling arthritis to an NFL linebacker.

There really is way, way too much variation in the classes of "person trained in martial arts" and "someone without martial arts experience who weighs ~22 pound more" for any comparison of fighting ability to be meaningful.

 

[Littlebuddy]

Hey,

thanks for your replies!

Youre definitely right: That statement is extremely vague. I think the comparison was always supposed to be between people of similar age and general physical fitness. It was also in context of "street fights", no rules, no constraints basically.
I probably wouldnt have put much thought into it but as Ive said I read it in various forms multiple times. One person called it the "15%-Rule" ("If someone weighs 15% more than you not even martial arts will help you") another person on a different website simply refered to the 22lbs I mentioned.

It sounded odd to me as well, but I didnt want to develop unrealistic expectations either.

Find a good instructor at a good school, put out a good effort and you will have fun, you will develop physically and mentally, and you will be better able to deal with confrontations.

On the other hand you can continue to think about it for a few more months, consider all the reasons why it's pointless, and you will accomplish nothing.

Youre right, I have the tendency to theorize too much but im not actively looking for reasons that could keep me from getting started. What I am planning to do however, is building some basic stamina before beginning martial arts training.
This might come across as just another excuse but my stamina is currently so bad that I wouldnt feel comfortable with participating in training sessions.

Furthermore, im still in the process of gaining some weight and more body strength and if I started to do martial arts next week, next to my workout-routine that I do 6 times a week that would be too much for me right now. Some people may be able to pull that off, but not me at this point.

Im looking to gain some more pounds of weight, then focus on condition and then look for a martial arts class/trainer. (to clarify: Im already doing some condition training and I wont stop lifting weights alltogether once I reached my desired goal. The time and effort I spend on each of those things will simply change once I start to focus on my next goal)

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hey,

thanks for your replies!

Youre definitely right: That statement is extremely vague. I think the comparison was always supposed to be between people of similar age and general physical fitness. It was also in context of "street fights", no rules, no constraints basically.
I probably wouldnt have put much thought into it but as Ive said I read it in various forms multiple times. One person called it the "15%-Rule" ("If someone weighs 15% more than you not even martial arts will help you") another person on a different website simply refered to the 22lbs I mentioned.

It sounded odd to me as well, but I didnt want to develop unrealistic expectations either.

It's still a foolish claim. There are WAY too many variables for such a simplistic "rule" to have any validity.

 

[geezer]

This might come across as just another excuse but my stamina is currently so bad that I wouldnt feel comfortable with participating in training sessions.

Yep, just another excuse, or symptom of insecurity about your physique, and in truth, a great reason to enroll in a good MA class. Beginner classes aren't dominated by 20 year old MMA wannabees training till they barf every night. There are plenty of good beginner programs where the instructor will pace the class according to the students' ability. Hopefully, the instructors will push you a little beyond what you are "comfortable with", but not to excess.

Or, if you really want comfort... stay home and keep typing out posts. We're happy to respond.

BTW Consider this: I have an 83 year-old guy in my Eskrima class. He loves it. He didn't put off starting. Couldn't. As he put it, "You never know how much time you've got". So why wait?

 

[Argus]

I'm 5'8", maybe 5'9", and average 120-125lbs.

I've never found my size to be a hindrance in my training. If anything, it forces you to learn to apply your training correctly, and not rely on being able to muscle through your opponent. In real life, that's a luxury you're not going to have regardless, because no-one is ever going to attack you unless he believes himself to have an advantage -- either because he's bigger than you, or he's got his buddies with him, or he has a weapon. There's no such thing as a fair fight outside of the ring.

Also, keep in mind; if you ever choose to study weapon arts... Well, a blade or a bullet enter a 240lb guy just as easily as a 120lb guy. If a force multiplier is involved, size becomes even less of a concern. Granted, legal issues become equally more of one!

 

[Dirty Dog]

This might come across as just another excuse but my stamina is currently so bad that I wouldnt feel comfortable with participating in training sessions.

That is exactly what it is. An excuse. You're concerned that your cardio conditioning is sub-par, so you're using that as an excuse not to join an activity that will improve your cardio.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

The only claims regarding age and weight I've ever heard were from Renner Gracie, who said (paraphrasing) for each 20 lbs more muscle or 10 years less age than you, your attacker has roughly equivalent to one belt advantage... if all else is equal. Not exactly scientific, but reasonable assumptions.
Learning almost any MA form will help you close the gap with bigger aggessors. Some forms may be more suitable for you than others, so shop around a little (I'm sure others on this forum will have suggestions). The key is to work on improving yourself so things you consider to be disadvantages will no longer limit you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The only claims regarding age and weight I've ever heard were from Renner Gracie, who said (paraphrasing) for each 20 lbs more muscle or 10 years less age than you, your attacker has roughly equivalent to one belt advantage... if all else is equal. Not exactly scientific, but reasonable assumptions.

To add a little more info on that, Rener was speaking from within the context of a system where each belt rank typically takes about 2-3 years to earn, so he's saying that roughly an advantage of 2 years of training balances out a 20 pound weight disadvantage, all other factors being equal*. That's still a sweeping gross overgeneralization, but it's at least approaching a meaningful statement.

 

[WaterGal]

If your stamina is poor, the only way to change that is to exercise. Whether that's martial arts class, running, biking, lifting weights, whatever. You can't ever develop more stamina sitting on your couch.

As for the size factor, yeah, the bigger person will often have an advantage, everything else being somehow equal. But as others have said, skill and confidence/determination can often make up for that. Studying martial arts will make you more likely to be able to defeat an attacker than you are now.

Also... avoiding conflict and not getting into street fights in the first place is going to be a big help. Studying martial arts doesn't mean you can or should go around fighting people.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This might come across as just another excuse but my stamina is currently so bad that I wouldnt feel comfortable with participating in training sessions.

You don't have get in shape to start martial arts. Training in a martial art will get you in shape.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

With a height of 5'8" and a weight of 160lbs (110lbs 6 months ago, if im realistic its safe to say that i wont reach 177lbs with my body-type) im a relatively small guy and judging from the statement above not even good martial art skills would help me enough in a lot of potential encounters.

Good martial arts skills would definitely help you in most encounters. First off, the confidence you develop will enhance how you carry yourself, and others likely will notice it too. This should reduce the number of people wanting to cause trouble with you.
As for your size... one of our other dojos has a guy about your size. He is a nidan and has developed his skills to the point he'd devastate most opponents in any fight, especially if the attacker lacks formal training. Size would be mostly irrelevant.
Your reach/kick length is likely shorter than a bigger aggressor, which means you'll have to understand distance and timing more than bigger students (who can cheat a bit and not learn this as well). But that's definitely something you can develop.
If you train in a grappling art, your lower center of gravity becomes an advantage for throws and disbalancing your opponent. Even with less weight backing you, you can put this to use.
Almost all arts have some techniques which are easier/harder for people of various statures. There are a few techniques in my art which I can perform adequately, but would likely not be go-to techniques in a fight, depending on opponent's height/weight. There are some I feel very comfortable with and would readily use. In your studies, you'll likely find the same thing. Learn all the techniques and take what you can from them, but know which you can confidently perform for a given scenario.

 

[crazydiamond]

The only claims regarding age and weight I've ever heard were from Renner Gracie, who said (paraphrasing) for each 20 lbs more muscle or 10 years less age than you, your attacker has roughly equivalent to one belt advantage... if all else is equal. Not exactly scientific, but reasonable assumptions.
Learning almost any MA form will help you close the gap with bigger aggessors. Some forms may be more suitable for you than others, so shop around a little (I'm sure others on this forum will have suggestions). The key is to work on improving yourself so things you consider to be disadvantages will no longer limit you.

I am getting bigger I get older in order cancel that out.....or that's what I tell myself. Its all muscle - I swear.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

First off, welcome to the forum. I am the same size as you and I can honestly say that I don't find my size to be a problem. What I lack in seer strength, I make up in speed. This comes with learning how to control distance. Also odds are in what art you go into there will be someone that is bigger than you use this to your advantage. One of my favorite sparring partners is around 6'5 and out weights me by a solid 100lbs.

 

[drop bear]

Now something that I stumbled upon multiple times during my research and that makes me rather hesitant to actually being some sort of training is the statement that a person trained in martial arts will most likely lose a fight against someone who doesent have any martial arts experience but weighs ~22lbs more.

OK. Lets say that is correct.

You get into a fight with a guy who has 22lbs on you. Do you feel that training to fight would give you more or less chance of winning?

Can you gain 22lbs of functional mass?

So what options are you left with?

 

[Danny T]

What is your mental make up? How much do you really want...?
I am 60 years of age, nothing special. I train every day in some way. I have bad knees, left will not straighten completely due to injuries, rt can't bend completely... I still run every day, I still kick every day, I still train every day. I'm 5'7" down from 5'8" due to all of my joints and spine degenerating. I weigh 165 lbs up from 155 over the past year due to the activity downgrade and lack of will power to stop eating my wife's great meals. I have both shoulders with rotator injuries, still punch and do ground work.
The thing is we all have something that we can use as an excuse and it comes down to 'you'. Your desire to... do anything.

As to weight differences and sizes; yea it can matter but what matters even more is the individuals desire. How much do you desire to do anything. What is your mental make up... what is your human condition? You want to learn some martial arts and be able to defend yourself then go find an instructor and Do It! At my age can I realistically defend myself against a 6' 2" 250 lb man hell bent on hurting me? All depends. I'm still going to train physically, mentally, with empty hands, and with weapons. And in my twisted and bent mind, 'Damn Right I Can!!'

You want to have Fun? Then train in the martial arts.
You want to be able to realistically defend yourself? Then train in that manner and have fun doing it!

It all comes down to How much do YOU want to do it. You really want it... go train with that attitude.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There's a student at our school who is 5" taller than me, 30lbs heavier than me, fitter than me (he plays football for last years NCAA national champs...), and 30 years younger than me.

By the logic put forth here, he should kick my *** without breaking a sweat.
That turns out not to be the case, in the real world.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.