The truth about handgun knockdown power

[Deaf Smith]

If you hit the proper target area (heart, lungs, aorta, etc.), you will inflict life-threatening damage. If I have to shoot someone, I'm not going to just shoot them in a vague "center mass" area, there is still a specific area we want to hit. Granted, this target area is larger than the target area of the head, thereby making it a little easier to hit. However, wanting to kill or not wanting to kill don't really enter into the discussion...

Guys,

I want you to listen to what Kenpo is saying. Yes the 'COM', center of mass, is a poorly definded area. It emcompases basicly the edge of the lungs (which is quite a bit of area) and on down past the diapharm. Alot of that area is not immediatly vital.

I've always felt the COM bit was a way to help explain poor marksmanship. Everyone shot COM and thought they were good shots and it would do the deed. But, just to much of that COM is not so vital.

Center of lungs, yes. Heart, yes. And nothing else. We are talking about the size of a grapefruit and nothing more!

Now about stopping power. I hate the term 'knock down power' cuase short of a full dose from a double barrel 10 gauge with 3 1/2 inch magnum buckshot there is no 'knock down power' (and belive me, two barrels of a 10 guage will just about knock down the shooter to!)

Stopping power is the ability to stop an aggressor, right there. One has to depend on hitting that grapefruit do to this with a good round. Failure to do this, even with the vaulted .44 magnum may very well not phase the attacker, who then will try to pay you pack.

And this is why marksmanship is so important. And why I don't gripe with Kenpo using a 9mm. The 9mm will do the deed if you shoot well, and happly the 9mm, due to low cost and low recoil, is easy enough to learn to be that good.

But if you have the money, time, and dedication, then a larger, more powerful round would be helpful just in case you can't quite make that grapefruit size shot in a hurry.

But reguardless if you pack a 9mm, .40, or .45, the abilty to shoot strait and shoot fast, is the most important part of 'stopping power'.

Deaf

 

[jks9199]

Anyways, I have always like the .45 long colt. My grandfather was a deputy sheriff, in the state of arizona, he used a .44 magnum in those days. Once he shot a man in the back with it, the guy ran another 20 yards, so my grandfather claimed. So he switched to .357 and next time he had to use it, he hit a guy and threw him another 20 yards. Swore to his dying day that a .357 beats a .44 for knockdown power everytime. I don't know, I've never had the misfortune to have to find out, and hope I never do.

I'm sorry -- but that story is crap. For a handgun to pack enough force to not only strike the target, but knock it 20 yards would require that it have enough recoil to throw the shooter back, too. Basic Newtonian physics.

Ain't gonna happen. It's possible that the guy he shot fell, it's possible he lost his balance... but he wasn't thrown 1 foot, let alone 20 feet by a round from a handgun. Heck -- if you don't hit a popper target right, it won't spin... and they're a lot lighter than a person!

 

[Grenadier]

In terms of physics, people don't get thrown around when hit by a handgun bullet. There's simply not enough physical momentum, even for a rifle bullet, to blow someone back any significant distance, despite what Hollywood says.

For those who want to try an interesting experiment, I would challenge them to get a side of beef, or a hog carcass that weighs about 120 lbs. Set it standing on top of a box, and shoot it with a single handgun bullet, even a .44 magnum.

Even anti-gunners who let go of the "guns are powerful hand cannons" philosophy, will understand, that the carcass isn't going to go flying any significant distance at all, except maybe to tip over.

The owner of Second Chance Body Armor, even demonstrates his products, by wearing them, and getting shot by calibers that they are rated to withstand.

I'm sure that his demonstration of a .44 magnum slug hitting him while wearing the vest (and causing no knockdown or knockback at all), and only resulting in a slight grunt from him, is somewhere on Youtube or Google vids.

 

[Grenadier]

Here we go:

It's a bit old, but he's firing .308 Winchester / 7.62 mm NATO ammo.

This round generates 2700 ft lbs / s^2 of kinetic energy, maybe more, which is far more than any handgun round, including the Dirty Harry .44 magnum. The guy is standing on one foot, and doesn't get knocked over at all, despite all of the energy being dumped into the target.

5 minutes into the video, you can even see how a .44 magnum (far weaker than the above rifle round) has virtually no effect on someone's positioning.

Thus, Hollywood is woefully ignorant about firearms, and it's no wonder why many actors embrace the "guns are baaaaaaaad" mantra.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Shot placement is a top priority when having lethal force incident with a firearm. No doubt someone with a 9mm, .40cal, .44 or .45caliber will be successful if their placement is good.

 

[Grenadier]

There is a difference killing a guy with one shot and "stopping" a guy with one shot. A person hit once can keep on going and do signifigant damage before expiring. Thats not a "stop".

QFT.

We need only look at the North Hollywood shootout of 1997:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

The bad guys, despite being heavily armored, had at least 10 wounds from gunfire, and still kept fighting.

 

[punisher73]

I believe Mythbusters even did an episode on this hollywood myth and busted it. I don't agree with some of their results but this one was pretty straightforward. Their conclusion, even when shooting with a shotgun there wasn't the big throwback to a person like you see in the movies.

I have also heard the story about the .45 being issued to marines in the Phillipines due to it's "stopping power". This is kind of a slight twist of the reason why some rounds are used or not used. It is based on round velocity and passthroughs.

For example, if I am in LE and have to shoot someone, I am responsible for every bullet that comes out of my gun. I want to make sure that the round I am using will do the most damage while hitting the target, and at the same time staying where I put it. This is the reason many departments switched to a .40 caliber round instead of the 9mm round. The 9mm doesn't always transfer it's energy into the target and passes through it. A slower round tends to transfer it's energy into the target (the bullet expands and stops in the target) instead of going through it like a fast round can. If I have a round, I WANT the bullet to expand because it creates a bigger more damaging wound channel, if the bullet does not exapnd I only create a wound channel the same diameter as the round and the quick pass through may not cause much damage. Military rounds have been designed before that pass through so you CAN hit more than one person if the round goes through which gives you "more bang for the buck" so to speak.

Here is a quick comparision between the most common LE rounds

.45 ACP on average 800-1000 feet per second
.40 S&W on average 700-1000 feet per second
9mm on average 1000-1400 feet per second

Now factor in that many departments have one gun that is given to officers. You have to take into consideration magazine capacity and the average officer's hand size. The .40 is only a little bit bigger than the 9mm, but as you can see has almost the same velocity as the .45 ACP. Many people complain that the size and kick of a .45 is too big. The .40 has only a little bit more recoil than the 9mm and about the same size so it is very manageable for the average officer. This is the reason that many departments have switched to the .40, it was less likely to pass through the target like the 9mm, but it was not based on "knockdown" or "stopping power" (unless you are referring to the bullet stopping).

 

[jks9199]

I've also been told that the military WANTS that pass through... After all, a wounded soldier takes at least one, maybe two more out of the fight tending to him. In LE, as you said, we don't want the rounds going anywhere but into the bad guy.

 

[thardey]

I'm not sure which book it was, but I think it was "Kill or get killed" by Col. Grossman. (It was the one that worked with some Asian police dept.)

He noted that when criminals got shot in the stomach, they had a tendency to drop their guns and clutch their stomach, since the stomach wounds were a lot more painful. When they were hit in the chest, unless it hit the heart specifically, they often didn't react to being shot.

Not long after I read that book, my Dad went to the hospital for heart burn, but wanted to make sure that it wasn't a heart attack. (Turns out he was okay). But the nurse explained (in a very simple version) that the reason that heart attacks feel like heartburn is that our brains don't distinguish between damage cause in our chest area, that is, the pain nerves are sort of wired on "one channel" so our brain just knows that our chest hurts. Damage to the heart is translated the same as heartburn, and doesn't necessarily hurt that much.

On the other hand, our stomachs are very sensitive to damage, and cause a lot of pain, even though it is less lethal. (Stomach cramps will double me over in a heartbeat). Of course, the pain factor is only an issue when dealing with someone who can still feel pain, and not someone who is drunk or high, and can't feel anything.

What have you guys heard about this? What do you think?

 

[Deaf Smith]

I've also been told that the military WANTS that pass through... After all, a wounded soldier takes at least one, maybe two more out of the fight tending to him. In LE, as you said, we don't want the rounds going anywhere but into the bad guy.

Hauge convention, which we signed, prohibits 'dum-dum', that is any bullet designed or made to expand and magnify the damage.

Of course we got past that by using shape pointed bullets that destabalize and tumble upon impact (and some desentergrate.) Thus causing much more damage than one that just shoots through.

FMJ handgun bullets do not have that ability to fragmentate but will tumble. But being so much blunter and shorter, they don't add that much to the damage.

Deaf

 

[Grenadier]

Hauge convention, which we signed, prohibits 'dum-dum', that is any bullet designed or made to expand and magnify the damage.

Ah, but we, the USA, never actually signed onto that original accord.

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

The reason why the military uses ball ammo is due to the fact that you get the most reliability with ball ammo.

Of course we got past that by using shape pointed bullets that destabalize and tumble upon impact (and some desentergrate.) Thus causing much more damage than one that just shoots through.

Not so much the tumbling aspect... Military rifles use a fast enough twist rate, that even the heaviest 5.56 mm NATO rounds will be stabilized from their barrels. Where we get some really nice performance, though is with thin jacketed FMJ rounds, that fragment in a fluid medium, when a critical velocity has been reached.

FMJ handgun bullets do not have that ability to fragmentate but will tumble. But being so much blunter and shorter, they don't add that much to the damage.

FMJ handgun ammo shouldn't be underestimated. The NYPD, prior to using the tried and true 124 grain +P Gold Dot JHP, used ordinary hardball ammo in their 9 mm weapons, and never had any complaints about its performance!

 

[Deaf Smith]

Grenadier,

The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention, but we abide by most of it's provisions. Always have.

And the NYPD, in the Delito shooting, were they used FMJ, found it wanting. The NYPD's FOP demanded the JHPs. I don't even know of any police department in the U.S. that uses anything but JHPs.

Oh, FMJ can kill, and if hit just right, can stop, but it's well known it's not a good stopper (but if that's all I had, then that's what I have!)

Deaf

 

[Carol]

For example, if I am in LE and have to shoot someone, I am responsible for every bullet that comes out of my gun. I want to make sure that the round I am using will do the most damage while hitting the target, and at the same time staying where I put it.

I've also been told that the military WANTS that pass through... After all, a wounded soldier takes at least one, maybe two more out of the fight tending to him. In LE, as you said, we don't want the rounds going anywhere but into the bad guy.

Hence another reason for aiming for center mass, yes? The head is a small target that is likely to move around (one's eyes generally point in the direction that one is traveling), versus a larger target with less peripheral motion. Someone who is enduring a threat to their life needs to put a round in the bad guy, but also needs to ensure to the best of their ability that the round doesn't go in to an apartment wall, or otherwise astray.