The Search for Truth

[Matt Stone]

We are all pursuing paths that we believe will lead us to some realization of truth, be it spiritual, martial, combative, whatever...

Along that path are pitfalls and potholes filled with things that would drag us off the path and distract us with unimportant things (e.g. titles, certificates, publicity, etc.).

At what point in this Search for Truth is it acceptable to point out the failings of others? At what point do we draw a line between allowing someone to explore his/her individuality and unique expression and demanding that certain standards be maintained to uphold the quality of the arts we study?

For that matter, when do we attain a degree of "understanding," and what hallmarks indicate such "understanding?" When is there a demarcation between the unwashed masses and the intiated inner circle? How do we tell the difference between a person that mistakenly identifies themself as a "master" and a person that may genuinely be on the path to attaining that title?

These are rhetorical questions. They don't require answers. If you care to share, please do. But what these questions do require is that we all ask these questions of ourselves.

Some folks are precious. Others are not. This flies in the face of the "everybody is special" mentality, but it is the truth. Some folks just really aren't special. At some point we have to stop mollycoddling the folks that have been misled, force them to face the Truth, and help them to get back on the path so they can move forward again.

If you think this applies to you, maybe it does. Then again, maybe it doesn't.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
We are all pursuing paths that we believe will lead us to some realization of truth, be it spiritual, martial, combative, whatever...

Along that path are pitfalls and potholes filled with things that would drag us off the path and distract us with unimportant things (e.g. titles, certificates, publicity, etc.).

Yes, yet I believe that in how we address these distractions, helps define us and our path towards the future.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

At what point in this Search for Truth is it acceptable to point out the failings of others? At what point do we draw a line between allowing someone to explore his/her individuality and unique expression and demanding that certain standards be maintained to uphold the quality of the arts we study?

For me I have never had a problem with anyone pointing out my failings. For I take it as CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Now, in general, I would say it would be acceptable to point out the failings of others when you believe you have something to offer. Many Times it is your delivery that determines how the recipient takes the points.

As to the inner circle and the holding to higher standards. You set up the standards first and when the student knows them and can teach them or perform them to yours and others satisfaction then the student may attempt to grow and explore as an individual. As for the Inner Circle this has many levels. When the student is fist allowed to explore and later when they are a friend and valued member of your life, not just your club.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

For that matter, when do we attain a degree of "understanding," and what hallmarks indicate such "understanding?" When is there a demarcation between the unwashed masses and the initiated inner circle? How do we tell the difference between a person that mistakenly identifies themselves as a "master" and a person that may genuinely be on the path to attaining that title?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

The Understanding comes also in many levels, first in how to reproduce a technique. Also in when to use a technique. Also how to teach a technique and when to teach a technique.

Those in the inner circle, have trust and some level of freedom to express themselves and their individuality, as mentioned above. As for identifying a Master, you first have to know what a master is. Then you have to understand the how, why, when etc.,..., of being a master. You can be a master without the title and still have the respect of others and your students. You could be called a master and those that know what a master is, can tell you are not, but the "unwashed" masses may not know, since they may not have had the privilege to have learned or spent time with one.


These are just my thoughts. And Yes that is one of my greatest failings, I answer Rhetorical Questions.

I hope to read other points of view as well
:asian:

 

[sweeper]

At what point in this Search for Truth is it acceptable to point out the failings of others? At what point do we draw a line between allowing someone to explore his/her individuality and unique expression and demanding that certain standards be maintained to uphold the quality of the arts we study?

well I think anyone has the right to point out failings or problems when they think they may hurt or hinder someone other than the person who has the problem. I also think it is the duty of a freind to point out your weeknesses and to help you get past them.

Now if someone I don't know comes at me telling me all myproblemsI will be at leaste sceptical, I don't know what they know and why they are telling me this. Also they probably don't know why I do the things I do in the first place. As a result I think if you don't realy know a person, unless they ask for advise I wouldn't criticise unless they are hurting someone (maybe teaching something that is blatantly incorrect (in whatever scale you want to judge incorrect and correct).

For that matter, when do we attain a degree of "understanding," and what hallmarks indicate such "understanding?" When is there a demarcation between the unwashed masses and the initiated inner circle? How do we tell the difference between a person that mistakenly identifies themselves as a "master" and a person that may genuinely be on the path to attaining that title?

In life in genneral no matter what field of study, wether it's a game a hobby or something more serious (or less so) I can't say I have ever reached a point where I stopped learning, however small an amount of time it may have encompassed. That is to say, I think "Understanding" comes as a gradual level and there are no real incremental changes.. The question is kind of like asking "when does white become grey and grey black"? on an analog scale you can't realy say yet you could point at one end call it white the middle call it grey and the other end call it black and no one would argue, you couldn't point to the middle and call it grey a little to a side and call it white/black (depending). furthermore if you don't have a direct comparison for refference it is hard to judge.. I'm sure everyone has seen one of those demonstrations of perception where you have two squares, one white(er) and one an off white but there is a strip of something deviding them. when the strip is down (you can't see where the two squares meet) it looks like one color, but when the strip is up you can see a deffinate diffrence.. now metaphoricly speaking I would say you attain a level of understanding when it is obvious even with that strip down that one side is darker than the other.

As to mastery, the term "master" means diffrent things to diffrent people. I perosnaly think of it as an identification of someone who knows everything and can do anything regarding a subject, when someone is absolutly on top of everything in the given field or subfield, wether it's about commic books or electronics or martil arts, mastery in my opinion is the same. Now of course with that deffinition it would be hard to say that you were a "master" of the martial arts.. maybe a master of parts of martial art but probably not everything. I think in time it becomes obvious who is a master and who is not, I think of a "master" as a person who you could ask any question of (concerning the given mastered subject) and get an acurate answer, and even if the question has never been asked before (by anyone to anyone) they could construct for you an answer (though maybe not emediatly).

Personaly I don't like the idea of having a "rank" of master, I tihnk that's sort of an artificial imposation of a description,for me it doesn't carry the same meaning as someone of great knowledge on a subject reffering to someone as a master (regardless of rank). I don't realy see it as a title but rather a description.. and so I guess that may invalidate my view on mastery as to your question, but to cut a long story short I don't think it's something that you just become, it's not like one day you aren't a master and the next you become one, it doens't matter if people have called you a master before all that matters is your knowledge and your ability. That alone should make it painfully obvious for the observer.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

In The Patriot, Mel Gibson said " I am a parent. I don't have the luxury of having principles." Along the same line, due to circumstances, I have a mission to fulfill and I don't have the luxury to care about seeking the truth. :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
In The Patriot, Mel Gibson said " I am a parent. I don't have the luxury of having principles." Along the same line, due to circumstances, I have a mission to fulfill and I don't have the luxury to care about seeking the truth. :asian:

The "Truth" I am referring to is that ultimate truth revealed from MA practice - the unity of all arts, the nonexistence of any style. That unspeakable reality that defies real explanation but can only be understood and experienced.

But, again, just rhetorical questions...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
In The Patriot, Mel Gibson said " I am a parent. I don't have the luxury of having principles." Along the same line, due to circumstances, I have a mission to fulfill and I don't have the luxury to care about seeking the truth. :asian:

The only truth I know of, is your total lack of being cival and I think you enjoy pushing buttons of others. TO me you are just a childish little brother / sister prankster.

As I do not know your true name or location or sex, since it is not obvious from your profile I post both sexes so as not to discriminate against you.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mickey
The only truth I know of, is your total lack of being cival and I think you enjoy pushing buttons of others. TO me you are just a childish little brother / sister prankster.

As I do not know your true name or location or sex, since it is not obvious from your profile I post both sexes so as not to discriminate against you.

Who, precisely, are you talking to?

 

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Who, precisely, are you talking to?

DOH! I meant ot address it to Johnatohn Napalm, nothing against you Sir

Obviously I do not talk / write well either

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Mickey
The only truth I know of, is your total lack of being cival and I think you enjoy pushing buttons of others. TO me you are just a childish little brother / sister prankster.

As I do not know your true name or location or sex, since it is not obvious from your profile I post both sexes so as not to discriminate against you.

JN may like to shake things up a bit, but his posts are almost always relevant to the subject at hand. Yours, on the other hand, seem to only exist to slam him.

I don't know either of you. Just commenting on what I've observed.

 

[yilisifu]

When you have gone beyond what can be seen and felt; when, in your heart and spirit you return to and understand that state which exist(ed) before yin and yang (wuji), then you know.

And you can smile back at yourself.

 

[chufeng]

Smiling at others IS smiling back at yourself...if you know what i mean.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
For that matter, when do we attain a degree of "understanding," and what hallmarks indicate such "understanding?"

Understanding = has been there
Hall marks = has been there
Special people = know them
All people are special = know them all
Some are better than others = prioritizing between them
Truth = individuality
false = ego trip
acceptiable = can you live with it ?

Yes, good question... when and how? Would that be: need proof to tell others that what I'm doing is more correct?

I'm sorry I dont have the answers. I can only come up with more questions that question your statments, because they dont feel complete. I'm not say they are imcomplete, but for me they are not complete.

To be or not to be is the question....

/Yari

 

[SteelShadow]

I do not normally post to these type of questions .
Simply because no two people will have the same answer.Every one speeks of truths and knowledge and understanding.
But what may be one persons truth is another persons fantasy or lie.That dosnt mean anyone is wrong simply diffrent.I may understand what im doing while others do not .I may believe in what im doing with all my heart and know it to be true.But on the other side of the same coin the next person may percieve it diffrently.Knowledge comes in many shapes and from many diffrent places.I may see something as great knowledge and someone else may see it as junk.Its no diffrent than when we were in school.Everyone knew someone who was great at math social studies.Or anyother subject.While at the same time know someone who hated or didnt realy understand a subject.The socialstudies person may have become a great professor.While the person that thought it was junk did something else with there life.Niether pesron was wrong they simply choose diffrent roads.Its the same as M.a some may see an art as useless while others find great joy and understanding in it.
Sorry for the long post to sum it all up.
The truth in the martial arts that everyone is searching for can realy only be found within.And you may feel alone in your views of an art.But if it brings you knowledge and the insight and happiness you search for then its best to be alone in that art than to loose those things simply to hold face in the majorities eyes...
The paths to truth and knowlege are rough and have many directions.So remeber just because someone else dosnt follow the path your own dosnt mean they wont reach the same point.

Just my thoughts

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
The "Truth" I am referring to is that ultimate truth revealed from MA practice - the unity of all arts, the nonexistence of any style. That unspeakable reality that defies real explanation but can only be understood and experienced.

But, again, just rhetorical questions...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Oh. lol. Didn't I yelled Amen! at the "ultimate truth in MA" which you posted in another thread? How quickly we forget the truth! lol

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mickey
The only truth I know of, is your total lack of being cival and I think you enjoy pushing buttons of others. TO me you are just a childish little brother / sister prankster.

As I do not know your true name or location or sex, since it is not obvious from your profile I post both sexes so as not to discriminate against you.

As the Vulcans would say, your comment is irrelevant.

 

[tshadowchaser]

As was asked and mentioned earlier please keep the post polite respectful and on topic.
The original post raises some points that should be thought of in the light of all that we do not just the martial arts. Excellent points being made so far.
I will think about my answere tonight at class and then sleep on it If I come up with anything worth posting (that has not already been said) I will post tomorrow
tshadowchaser

 

[theletch1]

I have heard over and over about the MA triangle... mind, body, spirit. Your questions speak directly to the spirit side of that triangle that I have have been chasing since begining my training. The more I train the more I realize that I have been chasing that side of the triangle long before my training in the martial arts began. Of late I find myself struggling more than usual to reconcile my idea of the truth you speak of with that of others around me that, until now, I have looked to for guidance in the martial arts. I have heard an instructor lecture on respect and honor and discipline and seen that same instructor do the exact opposite of what he has lectured on. I have just reached the level of green belt in my chosen style and felt that I was progressing well both technically and spiritually. How many of you have found yourself in a position of discovering, when you begin to reach that "inner circle", that the one you thought was a master was a master of technique only and a total sham other wise? Or is this just a phase along the path of discovering the truth? I'd appreciate any input from those of you who have been training so much longer than I. I am to a point that I am seriously considering changeing schools or even styles. Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.

theletch1
"make civilized the mind...
make savage the body."

 

[chufeng]

I have heard over and over about the MA triangle... mind, body, spirit. Your questions speak directly to the spirit side of that triangle that I have have been chasing since begining my training.

Don't chase after it...sit quietly.
The thing you try to grasp will elude you the harder you try...sit quietly.
Like a butterfly, as you sit quietly, it will one day land in your hand...
Don't forget to breathe and relax.

I have heard an instructor lecture on respect and honor and discipline and seen that same instructor do the exact opposite of what he has lectured on.

Don't do as he does...
Don't even do as he says, if what he says is wrong...
The Truth lies not in those things "out there;" lies not in the "inner circle," a secret reserved only for the chosen few...
The Truth is YOUR birthright and each of us carries the key inside...
Sit quietly...attend to nothing...let each thought go after acknowledging it...to TRY and stop a thought is impossible and only makes its intrusion all the more forceful...acknowledge it, and let it go...eventually things will become quiet...and you will be able to LISTEN to the Truth.
Sit and listen...

when you begin to reach that "inner circle", that the one you thought was a master was a master of technique only and a total sham other wise

Don't judge too hastily...perhaps you are further along the path than you think...technique is technique...spiritual development is spiritual development...

I am to a point that I am seriously considering changeing schools or even styles

and it may come to that...but before you leave be sure that you have been objective in assessing the situation. The next school you enter may be worse.

:asian:
chufeng
It is entirely possible that your teacher is motivated by other things than the threefold path of the martial artist...OK...you can still learn from him...he agreed to teach you technique...learn it...the rest is up to you.

 

[Cliarlaoch]

Interesting questions. I guess the most important thing is, as has been said, simply to ask the questions. Philosophers, priests, and everybody in between have been trying to find "TRUTH" for millenia, and based on the fact that they're all still arguing about it, I don't think anyone's going to be able to answer most if not all of your questions anytime soon.

While I can understand the impulse of some to disregard such searches as irrelevant, impractical, or too time-consuming, I would also point out that such searches are one of the primary means by which we human beings determine who and what we are. Just because we don't find ultimate truth does not mean it does not exist, and in order to find the best way to live, we have to have an understanding of the ideal, the good, in order to judge where we are relative to that truth in order to make the changes necessary to achieve it. So, a search for truth is absolutely necessary.

That said, I think Johnathan Napalm raised a really good point: some of us don't have time for this sort of questioning right now. And indeed, an internal quest for truth is not exactly something that can be done with the click of a mouse over on E-Bay for 15 cents. It's just not that easy. One has to have the time and the patience for it, and the energy needed to do so.

The point of it is, then, I suppose, that we try and make sure that the actions we take in our everyday lives reflect the ideas that we hold to be true. The Constitution of the United States, for example, holds certain truths as self-evident (in philosophical dialogues, this is usually associated with an assumption of universality, so one can claim such self-evident truths were meant to be taken as universally true for all people), such as life, liberty, property, etc. Americans have been struggling over what those truths MEAN in their own everday lives and terms of political policies for 200 years, and they're still fighting over it, and with good cause. If we're ever going to make a society that can truly represent the best interests of all its citizens, we're going to need to take the time to think about the difference between universal ideas of truths, and the realities of the world. It may not be possible to achieve such idealistic heights. And yet, to ignore those ideals can be equally deadly. Look what happened in the wake of 9/11, for example, here in Canada. The government drafted a Bill that completely contradicted the Charter of Rights and Freedoms up here (based on similar principles to the Constitution), by sacrificing civil liberties for security to a degree not seen since Trudeau declared Martial Law in Quebec a few decades ago. So, in order to protect our rights, ourselves, and the very principles we hold dear, we have to occasionally take some time to make sure that we know what those principles are.

Some people have more time for it then others. But we all, at various points in our lives, stop and think about where we're going, how we got where we are, etc. It's times like that where we need to try and put ourselves and the things we believe to be true into perspective. This applies to Martial Arts as well as to anything else in life. How else are we to know when it is we should use the techniques and skills we develop in the MAs in the real world, except by an understanding of right and wrong. That understanding comes only from some form of truth that we assume to be correct.

I'm not saying that any one person's "truths" are better than anybody else's, since, frankly, I don't think individual human beings are capable of understanding such things without some serious changes to the size of the grey matter underneath our scalps. But nevertheless, we can at least try and work out our differences and try to find some form of consensus on the moral and philosophical truths by which we can live. And of course, in searching for those truths, we can try and deal with actions or situations that challenge those truths, and determine if we need to change our own perspectives.

Just my two cents. I also answer rhetorical questions... I guess that's why I'm in a politics degree at University. We always bloody well argue, eh?

Have a good one, folks,

--Cliarlaoch