The nature of the attack...

[TChase]

One of the things that I feel is incredibly important and often overlooked in Kenpo today is understanding the nature of the attack. If you don't have a good understanding of the attack you can never really understand the response(technique). And if you don't have a realistic attack you can never have a realistic response. The main problem I see is the attacker will throw what I call a static attack. Meaning they throw an uncommitted attack, whatever it may be, and then just stand there. I think this is a monumental hindrance to fully understanding zone/dimension domination. I'll use Clutching Feathers and Gift of Destruction from the orange list as examples.

The attack for Clutching Feathers as we all know is a left hand hair grab. What I see most often is the attacker with their arm fully extended and their hand resting on top of the persons head, just standing there. What many fail to realize is the hair grab is just the first point of contact in the attack. The attacker is grabbing you by the hair/head for the purpose of yanking you into a right punch, headbutt, or knee. Possibly all three if the initial attack is successful. I won't go into the specifics of the technique because everyone does it a little different, but by understanding and practicing this the student sees and understands the importance of controlling depth to cancel out the possibility of the headbutt, width to cancel out the right punch, and height to cancel out the knee. Whereas many just see it as "this what I do if someone grabs me the hair" because they haven't been taught the nature of the attack.

With Gift of Destruction many say the attack is an "unfriendly handshake". So the attacker just stands there shaking the persons hand waiting for the technique. How many times have you heard someone ask why would I do this to someone for shaking my hand? What the hell is an unfriendly handshake? I've often heard people explain it as someone squeezing your hand really hard or trying to fool you into an attack. Again, understanding the nature of the attack is critical to understanding the response. The handshake or grabbing of the hand is just the first point of contact in the attack. The real attack is on it's way so you better start dominating space.

Another thing a realistic attack does is lets you see the built in mechanisms for dealing with a continued attack that otherwise go unnoticed. For example, if your initial response fails. This can be applied to any technique, be it a grab, push, punch, kick, lock, etc.

These are just my thoughts on the subject based on what I've been taught by teacher Mr. Anfuso, and his teacher Mr. Pick. I'm not trying to put anyone else's methods down or claim one superior. I'm curious to hear others thoughts on the issue and see if others here train this way also.

-Tom

 

[Goldendragon7]

One of the things that I feel is incredibly important and often overlooked in Kenpo today is understanding the nature of the attack. If you don't have a good understanding of the attack you can never really understand the response(technique).
-Tom

I totally agree, I always teach the nature of the attack, for like you said, you can't form a good response without this knowledge.

If you don't have a realistic attack you can never have a realistic response.
-Tom

Also very true, however the curriculum serves many purposes at different times/stages of development. For example, in the early stages of the system, the student "uses" the material (again... AT THIS STAGE) more for "COORDINATION" development than anything else (yes, there is much multi tasking going on here ... such as self defense seeds, target awareness and development, motion study, concept introduction, etc. etc). If you are not coordinated, then the responses will be less useful than if you ARE coordinated, so you need some physical development for the newly learned material to function effectively.

The main problem I see, is the attacker will throw what I call a static attack. Meaning they throw an uncommitted attack, whatever it may be, and then just stand there. I think this is a monumental hindrance to fully understanding zone/dimension domination.
-Tom

We need to compare apples to apples here. In the early stages, I agree many of the attacks are static and unrealistic because we are still developing the new student with the BASIC skills he/she needs. This DOES or should I say SHOULD or MUST change at some point down the road when the student moves to the next level of development, so as to move on from basic development to useful application. At this point I totally agree with you that the student must NOW start to look at the "drills" [self defense techniques] much differently and more realistically to as you say "fully understand" the mechanics and usefulness of the action.

:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

What you're referring to is the Key to the technique, it's locked until there's a substanstial comitted action by our opponent. A static attack is worthless to a trained Kenpoist, and techniques should NEVER be taught that way. Most of our SD techs. are designed to work off a catalyst, using angles of least resistance and deviation. Without a comitted action by our opponent we've got no reason to launch a counter attack. Let's take Crossing Talon for instance, how were you taught the grab and why do we step to 2 oclock, and same goes for Darting Mace and Gripping Talon? There's a comitted action by our opponents that dictate where we go in the tech. and which tech we should be using by that action. There are only two things that dictate a tech., 1) Environment 2) Target Availability, and those are taken into consideration in the Ideal Phase of a tech.

DarK LorD

 

[Goldendragon7]

There are only two things that dictate a tech., 1) Environment 2) Target Availability.

Sooooo let me see if I understand you clearly , the direction, angle of the attack, range, or your position when attacked, have nothing to do with what/how you respond to an attack since it is not one of your TWO things..... right? :idunno:

 

[jaybacca72]

big dog vs dk (ding ding) let's get it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
later
jay artyon:

 

[TChase]

Also very true, however the curriculum serves many purposes at different times/stages of development. For example, in the early stages of the system, the student "uses" the material (again... AT THIS STAGE) more for "COORDINATION" development than anything else (yes, there is much multi tasking going on here ... such as self defense seeds, target awareness and development, motion study, concept introduction, etc. etc). If you are not coordinated, then the responses will be less useful than if you ARE coordinated, so you need some physical development for the newly learned material to function effectively.


We need to compare apples to apples here. In the early stages, I agree many of the attacks are static and unrealistic because we are still developing the new student with the BASIC skills he/she needs. This DOES or should I say SHOULD or MUST change at some point down the road when the student moves to the next level of development, so as to move on from basic development to useful application. At this point I totally agree with you that the student must NOW start to look at the "drills" [self defense techniques] much differently and more realistically to as you say "fully understand" the mechanics and usefulness of the action.

:asian:

Absolutely. I was speaking more about the student with some experience under their belt. Although I believe in teaching a new student about the full nature of the attack and just slowing it down for them to learn. The problem is I see many experienced kenpoists and even black belts that still don't understand this.

 

[MisterMike]

...the direction, angle of the attack, range, or your position when attacked, have nothing to do with what/how you respond to an attack. right? :idunno:

Maybe that was all lumped into Environment? :idunno:

I'm still unlcear on "nature" of attack. Does that mean they attacked out of revenge, jealousy, hatered there would be different responses?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Sooooo let me see if I understand you clearly , the direction, angle of the attack, range, or your position when attacked, have nothing to do with what/how you respond to an attack since it is not one of your TWO things..... right? :idunno:

Geez Dennis, you just described ENVIRONMENT & TARGET AVAILABILITY in the IDEAL PHASE, if that's easier to understand for you .


DarK LorD

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Maybe that was all lumped into Environment? :idunno:

I'm still unlcear on "nature" of attack. Does that mean they attacked out of revenge, jealousy, hatered there would be different responses?

You're a 2nd Black and haven't been told of Nature of the Attack, where have you been?

DarK LorD

 

[TChase]

I'm still unlcear on "nature" of attack. Does that mean they attacked out of revenge, jealousy, hatered there would be different responses?

Nope, that would be a reason for the attack which really doesn't matter. What I mean is if we look at clutching feathers again for example, the attack is someone grabbing you by the hair/head and attempting to violently smashing your face in. That is the nature of the attack. It is not somone standing in front of you with their hand on top of your head. See what I mean?

 

[TChase]

There are only two things that dictate a tech., 1) Environment 2) Target Availability, and those are taken into consideration in the Ideal Phase of a tech.

DarK LorD

I'm with you 100% on Environment. In the UKF we really don't think in terms of Target Availability so much as we do Target Creation. We prefer to move the attacker where we want him to go and attack the targets we want to attack vs. only taking what's available.

-Tom

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I'm with you 100% on Environment. In the UKF we really don't think in terms of Target Availability so much as we do Target Creation. We prefer to move the attacker where we want him to go and attack the targets we want to attack vs. only taking what's available.

-Tom

Target creation is dictated in the IDEAL Phase, but you must first see the target available to determine which technique you will use to create more targets.

DarK LorD

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hate to clean up after the Dark Lord (jeez louise, Darth! what have you been eating?), but unless your attacker's other arm fell off, you seriously want to consider getting punched in the head by the attacks that trigger "Clutching Feathers," or just about all of the "Gift," techniques.

Not to mention the whole kravmaga aspect of Crossing Talon...

On another aspect of the spirit of the attack (love those sliding signifiers!), one of my favorite rude tricks is to wait until the guy/gal I'm dummying for wanders in the brain, then punch 'em dead center mass...

Ask William if it works. He's a wonderful martial artist, and two weeks ago I actually saw a reverse technique line where his brain faded out, and he got rocked as he sloppily covered by a skinny yellow belt girl...she triggered, he woolgathered...kablam.

This could happen to you.

 

[MisterMike]

You're a 2nd Black and haven't been told of Nature of the Attack, where have you been?

DarK LorD

Actually, I put 2 and 2 together from this thread. Usually it was called a Followup attack (which could be multiple possibilities). How do you know there's only one for Clutching Feathers, or which is most popular?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I gotta cry bull on the "Two things that dictate which tech". There is only one thing. The entire cycle of considerations. Which can be broken down into eight or nine equaly important things. Position relative to your oponent's weapons plays just as much a role as targets. :asian:
Sean

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I gotta cry bull on the "Two things that dictate which tech". There is only one thing. The entire cycle of considerations. Which can be broken down into eight or nine equaly important things. Position relative to your oponent's weapons plays just as much a role as targets. :asian:
Sean

Position relation to your opponent's additional weapons is covered in the IDEAL Phase with dimensional zone checks, but you must first see WHAT Ideal Phase technique you'll be doing, and that's determined by where you are (Environment), where they are, and we could be talking multiple opponents (Environment), what is on you and around both of you (Environment) and Target Availability. Should your Environment or Target Availability change, the IDEAL Phase will shift to another (EVEN-IF Phase), IDEAL Phase technique. Besides, your attacker's weapons may become the intial target ie. Taming the Mace, Lone & Twin Kimono, Delayed Sword, etc..

DarK LorD

 

[Touch Of Death]

Position relation to your opponent's additional weapons is covered in the IDEAL Phase with dimensional zone checks, but you must first see WHAT Ideal Phase technique you'll be doing, and that's determined by where you are (Environment), where they are, and we could be talking multiple opponents (Environment), what is on you and around both of you (Environment) and Target Availability. Should your Environment or Target Availability change, the IDEAL Phase will shift to another (EVEN-IF Phase), IDEAL Phase technique. Besides, your attacker's weapons may become the intial target ie. Taming the Mace, Lone & Twin Kimono, Delayed Sword, etc..

DarK LorD

Using that logic, targets are also part of the environment and therefore not worth mentioning; so, we must then break down environment into eight or nine equaly important sub-catagories, which means... BAM! you are right back at the cycle of considerations, and with that you have no need to mentaly shift from one ideal phase to another. The cycle handles everything.
Sean

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Using that logic, targets are also part of the environment and therefore not worth mentioning; so, we must then break down environment into eight or nine equaly important sub-catagories, which means... BAM! you are right back at the cycle of considerations, and with that you have no need to mentaly shift from one ideal phase to another. The cycle handles everything.
Sean

No Sean, targets are on you and the opponent, the Environment & Target Availability will dictate his motion as well as your own. It's OK to break environment down to sub-categories but overall, there's still only two things that determine what technique you, or your oppnent, will use, Environment & Target Availability. The Environment can and does become used in the techniques, ie, chairs, tables, doors, pencil, lit cigarettes, etc., watch any Jackie Chan movie and see if I'm wrong, he's the KING of Evironmental fighting.

DarK LorD