The leg on the dummy

[MacPedro]

Hi guys,
just a quick post to let you in on some possibly misguided suspicions. Sorry for taking up M.T. bandwidth if this was already common knowledge.

I've recently been trying my dummy form another way. Like the IP man schools usually suggest the 3rd move of the 1st section (the first Bong Sau in a lot of forms) has to stick to the arm as you move to the left and low palm with the left hand and roll your right Bong into a Tan Sau. I had been coming off the dummy at this point and re-applying. I'd maybe picked up something wrong from the videos I've been watching.

It seems that just as the transition to Tan Sau is made, right when you're going to strike with the left hand and the right foot circles round the dummy leg...I can't quite get the grammer right to get it all into one sentence but it only happens when contact/pressure is maintained.

The right leg action suppliments the power from the hips. I don't know if it's a delay in the turn to facing or some other strange wave energy but it seemed different. More right somehow.

It's not just a leg it's a hip wynder upper tool Does this description sound like I'm on or off track?

Pedro
P.S. to MJM I've since made properly tapered arms after being inspired by your questioning and I can say the noticable difference comes at the end of each section with the double jut sau. So little energy required to stay on the arms now that they are tapered.

 

[Mike Patak]

Hi guys,
just a quick post to let you in on some possibly misguided suspicions. Sorry for taking up M.T. bandwidth if this was already common knowledge.

I've recently been trying my dummy form another way. Like the IP man schools usually suggest the 3rd move of the 1st section (the first Bong Sau in a lot of forms) has to stick to the arm as you move to the left and low palm with the left hand and roll your right Bong into a Tan Sau. I had been coming off the dummy at this point and re-applying. I'd maybe picked up something wrong from the videos I've been watching.

If you are saying that you lost contact with the Dummy and then re-applied contact, then yes you picked up something wrong IMO.

It seems that just as the transition to Tan Sau is made, right when you're going to strike with the left hand and the right foot circles round the dummy leg...I can't quite get the grammer right to get it all into one sentence but it only happens when contact/pressure is maintained.

The transition is one of hand and body. 'Position' comes from the transition of the Bong Sao to Jong Sao and 'Power' from Jong Sao (contact made with hand and leg) to Tan Da. Keep in mind that while the Dummy is not alive your Wing Chun IS. Therefore, you should treat it as it is also alive in how you use your technique. This is why you make contact with both hand and leg and maintain (Stick) that contact during the transition from Jong Sao to Tan Da. If contact is lost you cannot sense your opponents action. Therefore you are assuming or using the eyes to determine your action.

The right leg action suppliments the power from the hips. I don't know if it's a delay in the turn to facing or some other strange wave energy but it seemed different. More right somehow.

It's not just a leg it's a hip wynder upper tool Does this description sound like I'm on or off track?

Its a whole body unity structure. You cannot rotate the wrist into Tan Da without the body too. Same you cannot rotate the body without the wrist. Without both unified, one will be weak IMHO. One thing I learned about the Dummy: While we learn it as a form, it is made up of technique combinations/transitions. The key is to understand the combinations in order to know when sticking is proper and when its not in the form.

 

[MacPedro]

Thanks Mike,
the conformation is assuring

Pedro

 

[Mike Patak]

Thanks Mike,
the conformation is assuring

Pedro

You are very welcome (^_^)

I would offer something more to consider:

The MYJ can be very helpful in learning how to apply techniques/transitions. Likewise, it can also be detrimental. It can never provide the feedback that a live COOPERATIVE partner can, therefore bad habits can easily be developed. Likewise only playing the Siu Nim Tao or Chum Kiu or Biu Jee can cause bad habits. By COOPERATIVE I mean someone interested in examining/discovering as opposed to competing (ego based). I prefer to play with a live partner 1st before playing on the jong. I will use your initial question as an example. Play the Tan Da 3 different ways. 1st in YJKYM with Tan sau (palm up) connecting to your partner's wrist. Have them step in striking and rotate your body ONLY to Tan Da. 2nd in YJKYM use man sau (palm facing in) connecting to your partner's wrist and Tan Da with hand rotation Man Sau into the Tan Sau but without body rotation (hold the YJKYM) as they step in and strike. 3rd in YJKYM use man sau connecting to your partner's wrist combine body rotation and hand rotation into the Tan Da as they step in and strike. Repeat this excercise until you are comfortable and then go back to the Jong and play the last part of 1st section of the Wooden Dummy form again. Also play your Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu applying what this excercise offers (specifically the application of the Tan Sau). Please provide your thoughts/conclusions back to me after.

 

[MacPedro]

Mike,
thanks again for this drill, I''m eager to try this with a determined partner. It seems to me an ideal way to demonstrate leverage at play. You can't show me enlightenment but you can show me how to get there Is there at any point a 'flick' with the Tan Sau? Like offering a restaurant bill with attitude or throwing a frisbee?

Cheers,
Pedro

 

[Mike Patak]

Mike,
thanks again for this drill, I''m eager to try this with a determined partner. It seems to me an ideal way to demonstrate leverage at play. You can't show me enlightenment but you can show me how to get there Is there at any point a 'flick' with the Tan Sau? Like offering a restaurant bill with attitude or throwing a frisbee?

Cheers,
Pedro

The rotation of the man sau to tan sau is a flick of sorts because of course if you do it slowly in reality it would not work. Remember this technique or 'Transition' as I prefer to call it, is meant to send your opponent out of the space you want to occupy with as little force as possible (preferably none). Otherwise it becomes just another blocking technique. In Ving Tsun we use momentary energy as opposed to flowing. Use energy when its needed and don't when its not. After the exercise you should see what I am saying hopefully.

 

[WingChunIan]

Pedro,
Wing chun actions shouldn't flick they are elbow driven supported by the legs. The focus of your intent should be forward into the dummy at all times during the motion, the reason it feels more powerful is because the force that you apply to the dummy is returned into you and if you are in stance and aligned properly it has no where to go

 

[Mike Patak]

Pedro,
Wing chun actions shouldn't flick they are elbow driven supported by the legs. The focus of your intent should be forward into the dummy at all times during the motion, the reason it feels more powerful is because the force that you apply to the dummy is returned into you and if you are in stance and aligned properly it has no where to go

The "Flick" as I think Pedro is referring to in his question, is the rotation of the wrist into Tan Sau. This rotation is done in unison with the hip rotation and step (body unity) into the Dummy. The intent of this is to move your opponent's technique and position off of the center line, replacing it with your own. Without that rotation there is no leverage and therefore you are simply using force against force...stronger force wins. "Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact."