The Imjin War

[SageGhost83]

For crying out loud! There isn't anyting in here!? Okay, I'll try to do the honors: The Imjin War. The very first japanese/Korean war. Korea becomes unified by chosun dynasty and becomes a peaceful nation. They neglect their military because they feel that they don't need it anymore due to the new wave of peace on the peninsula. Their military atrophies and turns into crap, leaving them totally defenseless. Unfortunately, this is the time that hideyoshi decides to invade korea and use it as a base to launch an even greater invasion of china. Japan invades unexpectantly and conquers a large portion of the country, but not all of it. The Korean navy engages the japanese navy at sea and routs them, thereby disrupting supplies and communication. Warrior monks and peasant militias engage in a fierce guerilla campaign against the japanese invaders and really gum up the works. The Koreans turn the tide of the war and proceed to liberate most of their country thanks to the Hwacha. The chinese get involved and use their human wave tactic to horrifying effect. China helps create a "cease fire" between the two countries and talks go on to try to repair the rift between the countries. Talks break down and hideyoshi sends another invading force, However, the Koreans are ready for them this time, and they have the assistance of the chinese even more this time around. The korean navy makes quick work of the japanese navy due to the geobukseo, and the japanese never really advance an inch in korean territory. Badly beaten, hideyoshi gives the order to retreat while on his death bed. Koreans attack and rout japanese fleet that is trying to leave. Koreans hit fort where last japanese troops are holding out. Japanese troops wage fierce last stand and actually do pretty well, but are ultimately slaughtered. The ones who aren't slaughtered die from starvation because all of the ships are destroyed and no new supplies arrive. The koreans ultimately win the first war between the two nations with their legendary courage and never say die attitude.

That is a very general description of what happened, and there are a lot of facts that I glossed over just for the sake of getting the entire story out. If you want more, Turnbull wrote a book on it that you can pick up on amazon. It is called Japan's Korean War. You can also look it up on wikipedia.org. Another thing, why are all of Korea's wars forgotten? The war versus the Tang dynasty was a forgotten war, The first war with Japan was a forgotten war, and America's Korean war is called the forgotten war. Does nobody love Korea or something?:lol:

 

[SageGhost83]

Found this on the net:

http://www.ur.umich.edu/9899/Feb22_99/imjin.htm

Man, and no wonder why Korea hates Japan so much - they didn't just invade and do horrible things to Korea once, they have a little history of incidents going on here.

 

[SageGhost83]

And another link, this one discussing another book on the subject:

http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/325.asp

 

[FieldDiscipline]

They neglect their military because they feel that they don't need it anymore. Their military atrophies, leaving them totally defenseless.

I know I've cut bits out but that story reminds me of something abit closer to home...

Thanks for posting the above, interesting. I'm impressed with the geobukseo.

 

[exile]

As fighters, for sheer doggedness, the Koreans have few peers. No one in Asia resisted the Mongols more ferociously than the Koreans.

The amount of fighting the Koreans had to do—against each other, against the Han, against the Mongols, against the Japanese—makes the military passiveness of the Yi dynasty (which lasted a long time) all the more difficult to understand. The Koreans had been given plenty of examples of what happens when you let enemies get one-up on you. Seems almost some kind of mass denial phenomenon kicked in at one point—bury your head in the sand and it will all be OK.

 

[SageGhost83]

As fighters, for sheer doggedness, the Koreans have few peers. No one in Asia resisted the Mongols more ferociously than the Koreans.

The amount of fighting the Koreans had to do—against each other, against the Han, against the Mongols, against the Japanese—makes the military passiveness of the Yi dynasty (which lasted a long time) all the more difficult to understand. The Koreans had been given plenty of examples of what happens when you let enemies get one-up on you. Seems almost some kind of mass denial phenomenon kicked in at one point—bury your head in the sand and it will all be OK.

So true, actually. The Koreans did have their moments against the Japanese, The Mongols, The Ming, and the Tang. The only reason why they struggled so much was due to their own negligence and complacency. Admiral Yi did make the Japanese cry uncle, and I hear that those Seon monks were something ferocious. The sad part is, Korea does have a distinguished military history, but yet they still feel the need to distort history. Korea should use the triumphs over the Mongols and Japanese as examples of their military past. And there is always the Geobukseo, the Hwacha, and Kukgung archery. They should also stop letting other nations build up these huge advantages over them. I think their denial came from arrogance and laziness. Like you stated, they could more than hold their own against their enemies, but for some reason, they figured that if they ignored them then they would just go away. Perhaps they could've been battle-weary as well. Fighting so many wars must have taken a large toll on them.

 

[exile]

So true, actually. The Koreans did have their moments against the Japanese, The Mongols, The Ming, and the Tang. The only reason why they struggled so much was due to their own negligence and complacency. Admiral Yi did make the Japanese cry uncle, and I hear that those Seon monks were something ferocious. The sad part is, Korea does have a distinguished military history, but yet they still feel the need to distort history. That earlier post, by the way, was more tongue in cheek, so people, please don't jump down my throat :lol:. Korea should use the triumphs over the Mongols and Japanese as examples of their military past. And there is always the Geobukseo, the Hwacha, and Kukgung archery. They should also stop letting other nations build up these huge advantages over them. I think their denial came from arrogance and laziness. Like you stated, they could more than hold their own against their enemies, but for some reason, they figured that if they ignored them then they would just go away. Perhaps they could've been battle-weary as well. Fighting so many wars must have taken a large toll on them.

Yes, especially the bolded parts. I've been wondering...

The Yi Dynasty rejection of martial preparedness was correlated with the dominance of the Confucian attitude that the Koreans borrowed, along with much else, from China. And it's struck me for quite a while that Confucian doctrines are a luxury that an outnumbered, vulnerable society can ill afford. Consider the following nice summary of the ideal Confucian man:

The term "Jūnzǐ" (Chinese: 君子; literally "nobleman") is crucial to classical Confucianism. The ideal of a "gentleman" or "perfect man" is that for which Confucianism exhorts all people to strive. A succinct description of the "perfect man" is one who "combines the qualities of saint, scholar, and gentleman" (CE). In modern times the masculine translation in English is also traditional and is still frequently used. A hereditary elitism was bound up with the concept, and gentlemen were expected to act as moral guides to the rest of society.
They were to:

• cultivate themselves morally;
• show filial piety and loyalty where these are due;
• cultivate humanity, or benevolence.

The great exemplar of the perfect gentleman is Confucius himself. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of his life was that he was never awarded the high official position which he desired, from which he wished to demonstrate the general well-being that would ensue if humane persons ruled and administered the state.​

But nowhere is there any evidence that the 'gentleman', the paradigm of Confucian society, is supposed to be a fighter. Now this is fine for a huge empire with a massively ramified class system and rank structure: the soldiers of the empire will be off holding the frontier and doing the dirty work, while the cultivati in the cities educate themselves on ultra-fine points of ceremony, ritual, and elegant conversation. China was just such a society, but Korea was not: it was a small, scrappy kingdom trying to keep its head above water, surrounded by powerful enemies. For the Koreans' Japanese neighbors, on the contrary, it was true, as Iorek Brynisson says in His Dark Materials, that War is the sea I swim in! And China was a never-negligible threat to the west. So one question that comes out of this might be, why did the iron grip of Confucian over-refinement take hold on the Korean Peninsula, where conditions seemed so unsuited to such a hyper-refined attitude to life and statecraft?

 

[SageGhost83]

Yes! Yes! Indeed! I recall a university lecture which stated that Korea had grown complacent after the unification of the peninsula and neglected its military matters in favor of pursuing the humanities. I remember prof also mentioning something about a Korean general that kept trying to warn the leaders about the deteriorating state of the military...darn...it's been so long since the Asian studies classes. Sorry I can't provide more, the ole' noodle ain't as quick as it used to be.

 

[exile]

Yes! Yes! Indeed! I recall a university lecture which stated that Korea had grown complacent after the unification of the peninsula and neglected its military matters in favor of pursuing the humanities. I remember prof also mentioning something about a Korean general that kept trying to warn the leaders about the deteriorating state of the military...darn...it's been so long since the Asian studies classes. Sorry I can't provide more, the ole' noodle ain't as quick as it used to be.

I think one of the greatest temptations of all is the belief that peace is a natural, 'default' state of things, and that conflict is a deviation from this state, to which things are always trying to return. But if history is any guide, eras of peace are like small, temporary oases in an apparently endless desert of brutal conquest and violence. Naturally, we'd like to believe the former to be true, because on an individual level that's mostly what people want. But for some reason, collectively, we seem to be willing to engage in the most horrifically violent behavior at the drop of a hat. That's why I was talking about denial earlier: it's almost as though the Koreans of the Yi dynasty managed to hypnotize themselves into believing something that their whole history refuted: that in the geopolitical space occupied by Korea, things could ever be permanently tranquil, with the local Great Powers otherwise engaged, leaving the Hermit Kingdom free to blithely go its own way. And we see how well that illusion played out.... :erg:

 

[SageGhost83]

I see, History repeats itself and the Koreans failed to realize this, especially in the realm of war. Yes, they must have been in denial to think that the Japanese and the Chinese were going to leave them alone forever. Not to mention all of the in-fighting going on within their own country (Buddhist vs. Confucianist values).

 

[Errant108]

Admiral Yi did make the Japanese cry uncle, and I hear that those Seon monks were something ferocious.

Several groups of monks, organized around various abbots & leaders who took the roles of generals and commanders, fought off the Hideyoshi invasion on various fronts. Their principle weapons are recorded as being spears & sickles. The primary general was Seosan-daesa (The Great Monk, Western Mountain). After the armies of Choson were crushed by the Japanese, a monk named Yong-gyu took his musaeng (warrior monks) to fight the Japanese at Cheongju. Yong-gyu was Seosan-daesa's disciple. Yong-gyu was victorious at Cheongju, but lost his life at Keomsan.

The King asked Seosan-daesa to come out of seclusion in order to save Choson. The 73 year old monk became the leader of the Monks' Army. Seosan-daesa raised units of warrior monks from monasteries across Korea, his own company numbering 1,500 strong. In particular was another of Seosan-daesa's disciples, Samyungdang, who's own unit was made up of 800 fighters. Other monks joined with militia units of their own, bringing the number of the warrior monk army to 5,000. With the help of reinforcements from the Ming army, they liberated Pyongyang. Continuing on from there, Samyungdang drove the remaining Japanese out of the southeast. When the Japanese invaded again in 1597, Samyungdang raised an army of 1,000 monks and attacked Kato Kiyomasa's base. He himself led infiltration teams (the real Korean ninjers) into Kiyomasa's camp to gather intelligence, and used this information to sue for peace talks. During one of these talks, he came face to face with Kato Kiyomasa. In an act of defiance that even the Japanese came to revere, Samyungdang told Kato Kiyomasa that the Choson Dynasty's crown jewel was Kiyomasa's head, and that the people of Choson would only know peace if he cut that head off.

Samyungdang was later asked by the King to pursue peace talks in Japan, where he was greeted by the Japanese with reverence for his bravery. The talks were successful and Samyungdang returned to Korea with around 3,000 POWs.

It is important to note that most of these monk-generals are not revered only for helping defend the nation from the Japanese, but that all of them, particularly Seosan & Samyung, are respected for their contributions to Korean Buddhism and practice.

 

[SageGhost83]

Umm...Err...What I said in the Seon monks thread :highfive:.

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

It is also important to note that there were also several contributing factors to the decline of the Korean military at this time. It was not only a complacency or philosophical issue, but it was also a type of "short sighted self preservation" type of mentality that took place as well. The rulers of that time were not only war weary, but were also weary of assassinations and military coups. There was a similar situation in China and Japan at different times. Just look at how many times power changed hands before the Unified Shilla Dynasty, or even the Yi Dynasty (also known as the Chosun Dynasty).

(Check out charts such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_of_Korea)

These later rulers wanted to keep power through civil bureaucracy and were leery of the power of the military. This backfired terribly, and many Korean paid the price.

"If one does not learn the lessons of history, one is condemned to repeat them".

 

[RollingWave]

For crying out loud! There isn't anyting in here!? Okay, I'll try to do the honors: The Imjin War. The very first japanese/Korean war. Korea becomes unified by chosun dynasty and becomes a peaceful nation. They neglect their military because they feel that they don't need it anymore due to the new wave of peace on the peninsula. Their military atrophies and turns into crap, leaving them totally defenseless. Unfortunately, this is the time that hideyoshi decides to invade korea and use it as a base to launch an even greater invasion of china. Japan invades unexpectantly and conquers a large portion of the country, but not all of it. The Korean navy engages the japanese navy at sea and routs them, thereby disrupting supplies and communication. Warrior monks and peasant militias engage in a fierce guerilla campaign against the japanese invaders and really gum up the works. The Koreans turn the tide of the war and proceed to liberate most of their country thanks to the Hwacha. The chinese get involved and use their human wave tactic to horrifying effect. China helps create a "cease fire" between the two countries and talks go on to try to repair the rift between the countries. Talks break down and hideyoshi sends another invading force, However, the Koreans are ready for them this time, and they have the assistance of the chinese even more this time around. The korean navy makes quick work of the japanese navy due to the geobukseo, and the japanese never really advance an inch in korean territory. Badly beaten, hideyoshi gives the order to retreat while on his death bed. Koreans attack and rout japanese fleet that is trying to leave. Koreans hit fort where last japanese troops are holding out. Japanese troops wage fierce last stand and actually do pretty well, but are ultimately slaughtered. The ones who aren't slaughtered die from starvation because all of the ships are destroyed and no new supplies arrive. The koreans ultimately win the first war between the two nations with their legendary courage and never say die attitude.

That is a very general description of what happened, and there are a lot of facts that I glossed over just for the sake of getting the entire story out. If you want more, Turnbull wrote a book on it that you can pick up on amazon. It is called Japan's Korean War. You can also look it up on wikipedia.org. Another thing, why are all of Korea's wars forgotten? The war versus the Tang dynasty was a forgotten war, The first war with Japan was a forgotten war, and America's Korean war is called the forgotten war. Does nobody love Korea or something?:lol:

According to Ming records ( typically pretty accurate ) in both invasion the Ming send around 40,000 - 50,000 land forces. (in the second time around they had about 20,000 naval and logisitcal troops commited as well)

The Japanese forces was 141,000 in the first invasion and 150,000 in the second.

I don't see how you do a "human wave" tactic when your outnumbered 3 to 1

The Ming at the time were simply better equiped and than the Japanese except in the area of muskets. they had (A lot) more field artillery, and much more cavalry, they also had more other gunpowder based weapons (like the rocket arrows. remember that the Hwacha were originally insprised by the Chinese rocket arrows. it was still prominent in the Ming army at the time, they used hand carried rocket launchers to fire theirs during the Ming dynasty). They were also pretty comparable experience wise, dispite the fact that Japan was comming off it's warring states era. and were generally better lead.

In the initial seige to retake PyongYang, the Ming had EXACTLY the same amount of men as the Japanese. and they won losing a fraction of their men (roughly 2%) while the Japanese lost about 1/3 of their's. and this was attacking a walled city. where the Japanese defenders were suppose to have a huge advantage. The difference in long range fire power was tremendously obvious. and the Chinese were also much more experienced at seiging cities.