The Evolution of Trias Karate

[dancingalone]

Anyone know what the differences if any are between the various incarnations of Robert Trias style karate? I know it's been called Shuri-ryu, Shorei-ryu, and Shorei-Goju-ryu at various times.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Anyone know what the differences if any are between the various incarnations of Robert Trias style karate? I know it's been called Shuri-ryu, Shorei-ryu, and Shorei-Goju-ryu at various times.

Miguksaram can give you some good information on this, I'm sure. His Sensei Sharkey is Shorei-ryu lineage from Trias.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

While I was in Chiropractic school, I worked out with one of Sharkey Sensei's old students. Similar enough to my background that we made great training partners. Stances were much deeper than what I practice, but the stances were GREAT for mobility and strengthening of the hips and legs! This has been my only personal exposure to any of Trias' lineage or Goju in general, but I really enjoyed that experience.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Didn't Trias study Goju under the Cat (Gogen Yamaguchi)?

 

[dancingalone]

Didn't Trias study Goju under the Cat (Gogen Yamaguchi)?

I have read that before. How accurate it is I don't know. There's similar controversy about how much Shihan Trias really trained under Yasuhiro Konishi as well as that mysterious Hsing-I master Tung Gee Tsung.

Maybe Miguksaram can pop in and let us know.

 

[Jason Striker II]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Trias

Nothing about The Cat...

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Unfortunately, as popular as wikipedia is (I use it all the time), it is often incomplete.. . A quick wiki search for "Shuri-Ryu" suggests that he did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuri-ryū

"Trias reportedly studied with Hoy Yuan Ping in Singapore in 1944. In addition to these teachers, Trias learned from other martial art teachers, such as Yajui Yamada (Judo), Gogen Yamaguchi (Gōjū-ryū), Roy Oshiro (Gōjū-ry&#363, Yasuhiro Konishi, Makoto Gima (Shotokan, ****ō-ryū), and several others. Both Konishi and Gima served as mentors to Trias instead of in a formal teacher-student relationship."

 

[Noah_Legel]

I don't know too much about the differences between the branches, as I only have experience with Shuri-Ryu, specifically, but it does seem like Shuri-Ryu does the stances deeper and more square than everyone else, moves in a very linear fashion and we didn't do many level changes in kata (such as dropping to a knee in Empi Sho). Our shuto-uke was another noticeable feature in that it moved in a similar fashion to Shotokan but closer to the body--both hands went to the opposite side hip, rose to the opposite side ear and then dropped into place with the elbow staying one fist's distance from the ribs. Our punches also used the Shuri fist with the index finger laid flat on the meat of the thumb and we did the 3/4 turn method of twisting the punch instead of twisting the fist completely horizontal. If I come up with anything else that was stylistically noticeable I'll mention it but people with more experience working with the other branches of Grandmaster Trias' lineage will probably be more helpful than I am.

 

[Jason Striker II]

Unfortunately, as popular as wikipedia is (I use it all the time), it is often incomplete.. . A quick wiki search for "Shuri-Ryu" suggests that he did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuri-ryū

"Trias reportedly studied with Hoy Yuan Ping in Singapore in 1944. In addition to these teachers, Trias learned from other martial art teachers, such as Yajui Yamada (Judo), Gogen Yamaguchi (Gōjū-ryū), Roy Oshiro (Gōjū-ry&#363, Yasuhiro Konishi, Makoto Gima (Shotokan, ****ō-ryū), and several others. Both Konishi and Gima served as mentors to Trias instead of in a formal teacher-student relationship."

I very much agree, Ben, that Wiki is often incomplete. I just gave it as a possible reference. Also, I was surprised at hearing that Yamaguchi had taught Trias - some 40 years in the Arts, and I hadn't heard that.

Also, just a side note. Count Dante (John Keehan) said several times that GM Trias' system of "Shorei Goju" was not any traditional style that originated in the Orient, but rather was a blend of styles that GM Trias put together himself. GM Dante was of the opinion that GM Trias had learned some traditional method while in the Orient - but that it was a little known method. In fact, maybe it even had no name, and almost nothing in the way of "formal system" to it! This situation was quite common for those pioneer servicemen who first learned the Arts and brought them back to the U.S.

GM Trias, according to this idea, then organized and supplemented to round out what he knew (from various sources) - and called it Shorei Goju.

This comment is meant in NO WAY to disrespect GM Trias - I am just passing on a remark I heard (more than once) from a person closely connected to GM Trias.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Thanks, honestly I do not know much about Trias' past, so any information is appreciated.

 

[Jason Striker II]

Osu!

 

[miguksaram]

Please do not take this as gospel, but it is my understanding that the late GM Trias made several changes to the system through out its history. People either went along with the changes or they stood steadfast with the original curriculum. The first art that I studied was Shuri-ryu taught by my late GM Ron Rollands, who was under GM Phil Koppel who was under the late GM Trias. I was with that system for 2 years. Now fast forward to 8 years ago I started learning Shorei-ryu under Sensei John Sharkey. My lineage there is Sensei John Sharkey -> Mst. Bridgewater/Mst. Bourley -> GM Koppel -> GM Trias. Between the two systems, the differences were subtle but noticeable. For example in Ippon sets I notices that some of the Shuri-ryu group will execute two straight punches (seiken tzuki), where other will execute two vertical punches (tate tzuki). In the kata Wansu, in the second motion where rotate your hands after striking with the back fist, we will rotate around the neck are where as other rotate around the waist area. As for our stances we practice deeper stances. However, for our kiba (horse stance) we practice three levels; sparring (higher level) practice (middle level), forms (lower level). Forms is where we get very deep into the stances. It seems that much of it is the same gumbo some different spices thrown in by the individual chefs.

From what I understand, my particular lineage that I am with now, stayed with the original development as can be seen in the first Pinnacle of Karate written by the late GM Trias. There are a couple of revisions out there and with it the changes. The history of the art is sketchy. I know there plenty of Shorei/Shuri scholars who are more well versed in its history than I am, so please as I said do not take this as gospel because I have not done extensive research into it. Regardless of what the late GM Trias did study with or did not study with, the end result was that his system developed many talented martial artists. I hope this helps.