The Effectiveness Of BBT.

[MJS]

I'll preface this thread by saying the following:

1) My intent is not to start a flame war. Therefore, I respectfully ask that all posts that follow, keep this in mind.

2) The only Ninjutsu experience that I have is from what I've read online, in books, and personally viewing it live, from Greg Kowalski, here in CT.

That being said, here goes......

It seems like BBT, the art headed by Soke Hatsumi, gets beat on like a dead horse. During my free time, I'll lurk on various forums. Seems like innocent discussions on an aspect of the art, always turn into the my art vs. your art debates. It seems, to me anyways, that the majority of detractors of the art, a) have no experience in the art, b) base their opinions off youtube, c) just jump on the bandwagon because they have nothing better to do, d) base their opinion of the art off of one visit to a dojo, e) are most likely keyboard warriors that probably haven't set foot in any dojo, but most likely spend their time pretending their the next Bruce Lee, and imitate what they see in their backyard. I was watching a thread the other day, and found it interesting that one 'authority' on the art, couldn't even post without serious spelling errors, yet he's saying the art isn't good?? Sounds like he should spend more time in English class, rather than commenting on an art he most likely knows little about.

Now, some students of the art tend to say that the art is not about fighting, which of course leads to the question, "Well, why study something if you can't use it?" The reply to that is that there is more to it than just fighting.

People also go on to make the usual MMA vs. Taijutsu comparisons, asking why its not used in 'the ring', and who a student of the Bujinkan could even think about multiple opponents, if they can't even handle one with effectiveness.

Youtube is also brought into the mix, with the detractors usually searching YT, and posting clips. Of course, to aid their defense, they assume that what you see on the clip, is standard par for the course in ALL BBT dojos.

The other 2 X-kan groups, Genbukan and Jinenkan don't seem, to me at least, to take nearly the heat the the Bujinkan does. Maybe they do, but its usually the Buj that takes the heat. Are they doing things so different that they fly under the radar of the trolls?

I've heard that people have used the art with success, in RL situations, so one would think the art is good and effective. So whats with the bashing? What is it about the art of BBT that seems to attract the trolls, for lack of better words?

 

[Bruno@MT]

I am not a Bujinkan member (Genbukan).

1) The first thing that comes to mind is that the US is Bujinkan territory. Since English is this board's language, There will be many Americans here. -> if people will bash something, Bujinkan is a more attractive target.

2) The ninja hype of the 80s didn't help either, with people forming an opinion about BBT based on the ninja larpers they have seen in action. I don't mind admitting that I had my doubts about ninpo at first, based on the larpers I met 15 years ago when I was still doing modern JJ.

3) Ninpo practisioners typically don't step into a ring / octagon / cage, so its effectiveness is less visible to people than for example kickboxing.

3b) what doesn't help is that BBT is more about feel / principles, rather than techniques by themselves (please correct me if I am wrong. I got this impression from reading MT). While I am not judging that philosophy, it has led to a wide difference in skills of BBT teachers, and I think that the good get judged by what the bad do.

4) Grading in BBT is totally unlike any other system, which adds to the confusion when dan grades are compared to dan grades in other systems.

I am sure there are more reasons, but the ones above came to mind as possible explanations of the phenomena described by the OP.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think that all forms of ninjutsu tend to attract newcomers who are, shall we say, other than the typical MA student. I do not think that this means that any form of legitimate ninjutsu training is disreputable, but I do think it has suffered badly from the exposure it has received in the movies and various other media.

The very term 'ninja' has become synonymous (for some) with hokey, fake, and childish. This is confirmed to some extent by the occasional wide-eyed post made by someone clearly of a young age or maturity level who wishes to become 'a ninja' by home-study. One imagines a frail, pock-faced, picked-on young person of unsteady self-confidence and low self-esteem who cannot get a date and lives in his parent's house until the age of 30 or so.

I mean, it's bad enough when a young person steps into an Okinawan karate dojo and declares that they don't want to learn to kick, block, or punch, they just want to learn weapons like 'numb chucks' and sai. But when a young person imagines themselves capable of learning to hang from walls like Spiderman or become invisible...



To answer your question, I think it is simply the cultural understanding (or lack of same) of the word 'ninja' that attracts all the heat. I do not know why one school would attract more 'trolls' than another, though.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am going to show examples of Genbukan training:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_techniques

As you can see the techniques are done with no pressure testing causing a false sense of being able to apply said technique in a realistic fashion.

This type of training is what most critics see and are critical of. Uke just standing there looking bored or day dreaming. You see it in countless video clips of Uke not resistancing,not trying to counter or follow up just dead compliance.

It is not the techniques that are lacking you find the same in every art it is the manner of how it is trained.

Without pressure testing the technique it stands a greater chance of failure. Alot of critics practice pressure testing in their arts like Judo randori and Muay Thai sparring which the average X-kan practicer is not engaging in at those speeds in the beginning at least.

In Japan when I trained in the Genbukan I put a little resistance when I was Uke and the technique could not be pulled off and this was not against a kyu rank mind you. Another time I remember I was Uke in America and the Tori had to to a reversal to put me down all he did was spin on his ***. I got plenty of these stories some of them were Kyu some of them were Dan rank ALL OF THEM HIGHER RANK THEN ME.

So IMO it is not the art its not the techniques it is people are blindly following and not questioning there teachers who they themselves may not know how to apply the technique under pressure. This is why the X-kans get flack the Sensei worshipping,Ninja role playing,no pressure testing. I am not the only one who has seen it in 4 dojos in America and in Japan others have stated similar findings train alive stay alive.

 

[MJS]

I am not a Bujinkan member (Genbukan).

1) The first thing that comes to mind is that the US is Bujinkan territory. Since English is this board's language, There will be many Americans here. -> if people will bash something, Bujinkan is a more attractive target.

2) The ninja hype of the 80s didn't help either, with people forming an opinion about BBT based on the ninja larpers they have seen in action. I don't mind admitting that I had my doubts about ninpo at first, based on the larpers I met 15 years ago when I was still doing modern JJ.

3) Ninpo practisioners typically don't step into a ring / octagon / cage, so its effectiveness is less visible to people than for example kickboxing.

3b) what doesn't help is that BBT is more about feel / principles, rather than techniques by themselves (please correct me if I am wrong. I got this impression from reading MT). While I am not judging that philosophy, it has led to a wide difference in skills of BBT teachers, and I think that the good get judged by what the bad do.

4) Grading in BBT is totally unlike any other system, which adds to the confusion when dan grades are compared to dan grades in other systems.

I am sure there are more reasons, but the ones above came to mind as possible explanations of the phenomena described by the OP.

Thank you for your post. To adress some points:

1 and 2) IMO, and I may be wrong, but it seems that much of the training has changed from what it used to be, to what we see today. By change, I mean, like any martial art, things do change. Just seems that the contact and the overall look of the training is different.

3) True, and although he was billed as Ninjutsu, I don't think many are looking at Steve Jennum as a BBT or any Kan member for that matter. However, from a training standpoint, is stepping into 'the ring' that much of a precursor as to benig effective or not? Would someone look down on me if I said I train BJJ, but don't have any interest in rank testing or competing, but just the training, the workout, etc.? Some don't have any desire to enter the UFC, NAGA or anything of that nature.

Now, some may make an exception if sparring is done. I know there are many Kan students that regularly pressure test or devote special classes to that sort of stuff. 2 that come to mind are David Dow in Ca. who has a Taijutsu Alive class on his site, as well as the Dayton Bujinkan Dojo, which offers a randori class.

3b) Yes, I've heard the same thing, regarding the 'feel' of the techs., the material, the lesson, etc.

4) Coming from a non-Buj background, I've noticed the same thing. Going only on my impressions, it seems like its very relaxed and not standardized, vs. what we see in the other 2 Kans.

 

[MJS]

I think that all forms of ninjutsu tend to attract newcomers who are, shall we say, other than the typical MA student. I do not think that this means that any form of legitimate ninjutsu training is disreputable, but I do think it has suffered badly from the exposure it has received in the movies and various other media.

The very term 'ninja' has become synonymous (for some) with hokey, fake, and childish. This is confirmed to some extent by the occasional wide-eyed post made by someone clearly of a young age or maturity level who wishes to become 'a ninja' by home-study. One imagines a frail, pock-faced, picked-on young person of unsteady self-confidence and low self-esteem who cannot get a date and lives in his parent's house until the age of 30 or so.

I mean, it's bad enough when a young person steps into an Okinawan karate dojo and declares that they don't want to learn to kick, block, or punch, they just want to learn weapons like 'numb chucks' and sai. But when a young person imagines themselves capable of learning to hang from walls like Spiderman or become invisible...



To answer your question, I think it is simply the cultural understanding (or lack of same) of the word 'ninja' that attracts all the heat. I do not know why one school would attract more 'trolls' than another, though.

Hey Bill,

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I mean, aside from the early SKH books, I think its pretty safe to admit that there was some pretty hokey stuff as far as movies go. So, if people, like me, watched the countless Sho Kosugi movies...well, I think you see where I'm going. Main difference being, is that some of us, like myself, understood that this was a movie. I'm sure there were and still are people who watched that stuff and thought what they were seeing what really Ninjutsu.

 

[MJS]

I am going to show examples of Genbukan training:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_techniques

As you can see the techniques are done with no pressure testing causing a false sense of being able to apply said technique in a realistic fashion.

This type of training is what most critics see and are critical of. Uke just standing there looking bored or day dreaming. You see it in countless video clips of Uke not resistancing,not trying to counter or follow up just dead compliance.

It is not the techniques that are lacking you find the same in every art it is the manner of how it is trained.

Without pressure testing the technique it stands a greater chance of failure. Alot of critics practice pressure testing in their arts like Judo randori and Muay Thai sparring which the average X-kan practicer is not engaging in at those speeds in the beginning at least.

In Japan when I trained in the Genbukan I put a little resistance when I was Uke and the technique could not be pulled off and this was not against a kyu rank mind you. Another time I remember I was Uke in America and the Tori had to to a reversal to put me down all he did was spin on his ***. I got plenty of these stories some of them were Kyu some of them were Dan rank ALL OF THEM HIGHER RANK THEN ME.

So IMO it is not the art its not the techniques it is people are blindly following and not questioning there teachers who they themselves may not know how to apply the technique under pressure. This is why the X-kans get flack the Sensei worshipping,Ninja role playing,no pressure testing. I am not the only one who has seen it in 4 dojos in America and in Japan others have stated similar findings train alive stay alive.

Likewise, that is one of my biggest pet peeves in my training (Kenpo) as well. Nothing pisses me off more, than someone choking me, and they're giving me a shoulder massage. Choke me dammit!! LOL! Same with a punch. Hit me in the face! If I don't move, then I guess I get hit.

Now, of course, during the initial learning, and I'd go so far as to say this is par for the course in all arts, the techs. are done slow at first, to get the fine points, etc., with gradual pressure and resistance added in. So, in other words, by the 10th time I do this tech., I'd expect to have to move or get hit by that hard punch racing to my face. Additionally, take it a step further....once the basic tech. is done with resistance, add in something else. Ex: Opponent does right punch. Defender goes thru the start of the tech., but O adds in a kick after the punch, or throws a 2nd punch, grabs, whatever. This forces the defender to adapt to whats happening at the time, makes it alive, and adds in movement.

So, perhaps if we saw similar techs. as you listed above, done that way, but then with progressive aliveness/resistance, the doubters would have a change of heart?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Just to address Steven Jennum won 2 fights out of the 5 he fought. He won mostly with grappling that looks more like wrestling or BJJ he was a student of Robert Bussey so clearly there is a wide difference.

Scott Morris record 2 wins one lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbaa...FCD04DE7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=12

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Likewise, that is one of my biggest pet peeves in my training (Kenpo) as well. Nothing pisses me off more, than someone choking me, and they're giving me a shoulder massage. Choke me dammit!! LOL! Same with a punch. Hit me in the face! If I don't move, then I guess I get hit.

Now, of course, during the initial learning, and I'd go so far as to say this is par for the course in all arts, the techs. are done slow at first, to get the fine points, etc., with gradual pressure and resistance added in. So, in other words, by the 10th time I do this tech., I'd expect to have to move or get hit by that hard punch racing to my face. Additionally, take it a step further....once the basic tech. is done with resistance, add in something else. Ex: Opponent does right punch. Defender goes thru the start of the tech., but O adds in a kick after the punch, or throws a 2nd punch, grabs, whatever. This forces the defender to adapt to whats happening at the time, makes it alive, and adds in movement.

So, perhaps if we saw similar techs. as you listed above, done that way, but then with progressive aliveness/resistance, the doubters would have a change of heart?

Lets take two examples:Ippon Seoi nage both Judo and X-kan have this technique. Both start out teaching Ippon slowly maybe no resistance so Uke can learn the technique. This is where the similaries end. Judo will then go into Randori and pressure test Ippon while the X-kan will just learn the technique and not engage in the randori type training Judo does.

This is the difference and what most people are critical of.

 

[MJS]

Just to address Steven Jennum won 2 fights out of the 5 he fought. He won mostly with grappling that looks more like wrestling or BJJ he was a student of Robert Bussey so clearly there is a wide difference.

Scott Morris record 2 wins one lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbaa...FCD04DE7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=12

Oh, I'm not slamming Jennum. Personally, he impressed me more than Morris. Only reason I said what I did, was that many from the Kans feel that Hayes and Bussey, even though both trained with Hatsumi, both went their own ways, own thing, etc. are the black sheep. But seeing that it was brought up, what are your thoughts on Bussey?

 

[MJS]

Lets take two examples:Ippon Seoi nage both Judo and X-kan have this technique. Both start out teaching Ippon slowly maybe no resistance so Uke can learn the technique. This is where the similaries end. Judo will then go into Randori and pressure test Ippon while the X-kan will just learn the technique and not engage in the randori type training Judo does.

This is the difference and what most people are critical of.

So why then, do we never see any of the Kans posting the techs. at a faster pace or more alive? I mean, if they're going to post clips of techs slow, I'd think it'd only make sense to post them doing the tech. quick.

While I'm sure there'd still be some that thought it was BS, I'm thinking if we saw things quicker, it may satisfy others.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

I must be a little bored right now, so I guess I'll weigh in...

The effectiveness is not really ever about the effectiveness of the art, but the effectiveness of the training methods. After all, a kick to the knee is a kick to the knee, a punch to the face is a punch to the face (etc etc...). So I think we can all agree that the particular technical aspects of BBT (or any other combative art) can be as effective as any other. That brings us to training methods...

Over the years, the Bujinkan has gone through a number of very distinct training approaches. In the 60's and 70's the training was very restricted in terms of numbers, and was focused on hard body conditioning and (sometimes brutal) application of technique. Hatsumi himself has spoken about the way he taught and trained in those days, saying that he often went too hard and too far in the application, but everyone seemed to be fine with it.

This was followed by a focus on basics (such as the Kihon Happo and Sanshin no Gata) as the art spread around the world, particularly to Western countries such as the US. At this time the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki became the standard teaching manual. However, the art was spreading in many directions, and rather than establish firm control over the organisation, Hatsumi Sensei chose to leave the teaching in the hands of the individual instructors which has had the downside of having vastly wide ranging levels of skill and standards across the organisation.

Due to the large numbers, and very different ability levels, the training developed again into what became known as the Bujinkan's "Happy Heart" training. This was from the late 80's into the 90's, and was characterised by very relaxed movement, and focus on the "feeling" rather than form or power. It is thought that a large part of the reason was to ensure safety for the large number of people now training in the art.

Eventually Hatsumi saw that this was weakening the practitioners, and it was time to change again. The story goes that around 1996 (from memory...) he was teaching a sword technique (using bokken), and the senior Japanese Black Belt was attacking with a "Happy Heart". Hatsumi told him to atack again, properly this time. The Black Belt attacked with a "Happy Heart". Hatsumi told him again to attack properly, and again was presented with a "Happy Heart". This time, Hatsumi struck down in responce to the attacking Black Belts forehead, leaving the watching group in shock. As the blood trickled down the Black Belt's foehead, Hatsumi turned to the mostly Western group there, and said "Playtime is over". Thus the period of "Happy Heart" training came to an end.

And finally, as we have moved into the 2000's, Hatsumi has been spending more and more time focusing on the more "philosophical" aspects of the training, with yearly themes such as Budo of Life, Budo of Zero, Koteki Ryuda, and this year a theme of no theme... This has been reflected in a training method that is slow, and relies on concepts of manipulation of space, distance, angling etc, and is mainly demonstrated on simple attacks to demonstrate the concepts fully, however these attacks and defences are not exactly realistic. And they are not meant to be.

The problem comes about when many members of the Bujinkan believe that they should only train exactly as they have seen in Japan, or more realistically, how they believe it is done in Japan (how they percieved it, even if they were there, is not always accurate) without the requisite background that the Bujinkan as a qhole has gone through, and the background that Hatsumi Sensei has spent many decades accruing. Very simply, by only training the way it is done in Japan, you are skipping to the end, and will not be able to really do what is shown, as you will be missing the basis that is required. However, a good instructor will be able to take you through that part.

It should be remembered that the way Hatsumi teaches is really designed for only the high level practitioners with the requisite background to understand, not the less experienced. But the way that Hatsumi has set things up is by telling everyone that if they are not training with him in Japan, they are not getting the "real" art. This is, I must say, simply a control method. And it again has the downside of leaving many practitioners behind who do not have the experience to get the benefit of the way that Hatsumi Sensei teaches.

As I'm sure you can see, I feel that the Bujinkan as a whole would benefit greatly from having much stricter standards, people would be able to get more out of the information and education that Hatsumi Sensei gives them, and the art as a whole would be much more positively recieved. These standards are found in organisations such as the Genbukan and the Jinenkan, and as MJS said, they are rarely targeted the same way the Bujinkan is. But the practical upside of everything is that it is entirely Hatsumi Sensei's organisation, and what he says goes as far as the Bujinkan is concerned.

To address the other parts of the OP, "Why study something if you aren't going to use it?", well, I personally really enjoy spear work, but a nine-foot long straight spear against a battlefield sword has little relevance to todays world. So why do I train it? Well, it teaches a management of distance, it has certain targeting principles that can be very easily adapted, it teaches you to comfortably handle an oversized and cumbersome weapon, it teaches an appreciation for the historical realities of the art, and more. But the reason is always going to be a personal one, and as far as the practical elements involved in the art, the sheer breadth of knowledge gives more practical elements and principles than any specialised system (such as a sporting art). And that brings us to...

"MMA vs TMA" arguments, really sport and sparring versus non-sparring non-competitive. This has been covered many times, so to sum up, sparring is not real fighting and has as many drawbacks as benefits, teaching habits that can be downright dangerous when it comes to real violence, so the idea of it not being seen in a ring is kind of moot. Oh, and Steve Jennum when he entered the UFC had left his association with Robert Bussey and his RBWI, which was a system that Bob developed out of his experiences in Bujinkan (known in the day as Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu), Tae Kwon Do, and a number of other arts. Steve then went out on his own, but at this point we are about 3 or 4 steps removed from the Bujinkan, so labelling him as a Ninjutsu practitioner was showbiz as much as anything else.

But in essence, the difference is not in the arts, it is in the way it is trained. If resistance is used, and pressure testing is part of the training methods, then it is certainly a very effective system. But if they are trained only softly, with little to no resistance or pressure testing, slowly, without the requisite years of serious training behind them (as Hatsumi and many of the seniors have), then things can fall down quite easily, with most of the detractors comments being fairly valid. Fortunately, many instructors are intelligent enough to avoid this trap.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Long are the days of bad 80's music and Ninjutsu assasins:

Notice his http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHXUxw1NsLI&feature=related

Some of the themes are there but similar to Toshindo.

Is it bad,wrong no not really it is not traditional and seems to work more boxing and Western arts it also is bigger on what works what doesn't approach rather then static training and tradition also as seen with Toshindo there seems to be more pressure testing with the techniques offering a more realstic approach. So really its taking the same techniques and training them in a more realistic manner.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

So why then, do we never see any of the Kans posting the techs. at a faster pace or more alive? I mean, if they're going to post clips of techs slow, I'd think it'd only make sense to post them doing the tech. quick.

While I'm sure there'd still be some that thought it was BS, I'm thinking if we saw things quicker, it may satisfy others.

Thats right they learn the techniques but do not pressure test it.

You almost never see this in the X-kan:

This is pressure testing. They learned the the techniques slowly and now they are testing it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are a number of Bujinkan dojo's that train very hard and would be physically challenging to anyone stepping in to train. I have been to a number myself. (particularly back in the day) What this really boils down to is the alive vs. not alive training. (that is the crux of the situation) I am happy to say that quite a few Budo Taijutsu practitioners do get out there and have alive training in what they are doing. (though definitely not all

) I can remember just a short while ago where some friends in the Bujinkan where up at my IRT Training Hall and engaged in fukuro shinai sparring and some rolling. (next time I will video tape it) They were also good and did well. So mileage varies and while the majority probably do not train alive there are quite a few that do.

In any system though it will come down to the practitioner in the end and what they can do with their training.

 

[Cryozombie]

Chris addressed this well, I just want to hit upon 2 things that were mentioned before...

1) Youtube is the bane of our existence. I don't think those videos need to be there, but they are so from my "educated" perspective; Most of the videos posted are demo videos. Not being done at speed, not showing "realistic" application of technique, often with pauses as the instructor speaks. Typically they are Kata video, and our Kata are just that Kata, despite the fact they are done with a second person who is throwing punches and kicks, their use in application is no different than a Solo Kata in, say, Karate or TaeKwonDo. Its to teach a certain body movement. Why people don't post more of their stuff being "used"... I'd venture to guess from past experience at many schools I've visited, It's not done often and usually only at higher ranks. So there is less of it out there. Also a lot of taijutsu doesnt look like much when its done correctly, so people would probably STILL look at those videos and go "Wuhhuh, durrr (insert drool here) dat guy jes feel down on himsown, it gots tah be fake. I go watch WWF naw. Git me another Pabst"

2) There are a large number of people who feel that 100% emulation of what is seen in Japan is neccessary. "Do like Hatsumi, now and always" but often you find these are the same people telling you "Hatsumi is only teaching to the shihan".

How's that for a confusing message?

I think they forget that the "Old Guard" as it were DID this stuff hard, pressure tested the hell out of it and proved to themselves that It worked... that many of us were not there for that and need to do it as well to develop the kind of skill that Hatsumi and the old guard have now. For most of them It didnt come overnight from doing flow drills.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

But those who do train alive is like what 20% where 80% train dead?

For every clip we find of alive training we find the majority doesn't.

There are quite alot of people who trained in the X-Kan(myself included) who can testify that the majority of X-Kan training is dead/stale,no resistance,unrealistic attack patten. I am not even talking about sport vs non sport or TMA vs MMA this is about aliveness vs compliance and the X-kan is not the only one guility of this. But the problem is not questioning your teacher about this(who may not even know he is training stale) and turning a blind eye if you are going to step up and call yourself a Martial art and effectiveness for self defense then its time to train like that. Instead of turning away from critics like Bull shi do people should get off the Soke/teacher worshipping and put their training to the test. I see alot of following in the X-kan and not enough free thinking anyway I will get off my Soap box:soapbox:

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Chris addressed this well, I just want to hit upon 2 things that were mentioned before...

1) Youtube is the bane of our existence. I don't think those videos need to be there, but they are so from my "educated" perspective; Most of the videos posted are demo videos. Not being done at speed, not showing "realistic" application of technique, often with pauses as the instructor speaks. Typically they are Kata video, and our Kata are just that Kata, despite the fact they are done with a second person who is throwing punches and kicks, their use in application is no different than a Solo Kata in, say, Karate or TaeKwonDo. Its to teach a certain body movement. Why people don't post more of their stuff being "used"... I'd venture to guess from past experience at many schools I've visited, It's not done often and usually only at higher ranks. So there is less of it out there. Also a lot of taijutsu doesnt look like much when its done correctly, so people would probably STILL look at those videos and go "Wuhhuh, durrr (insert drool here) dat guy jes feel down on himsown, it gots tah be fake. I go watch WWF naw. Git me another Pabst"

2) There are a large number of people who feel that 100% emulation of what is seen in Japan is neccessary. "Do like Hatsumi, now and always" but often you find these are the same people telling you "Hatsumi is only teaching to the shihan".

How's that for a confusing message?

I think they forget that the "Old Guard" as it were DID this stuff hard, pressure tested the hell out of it and proved to themselves that It worked... that many of us were not there for that and need to do it as well to develop the kind of skill that Hatsumi and the old guard have now. For most of them It didnt come overnight from doing flow drills.

Most of the videos teach how it is done in a typical class. The Bujinkan dojo I went to teaches the same. 3 Genbukan dojos I have been to teach the same way only stricter. Also many people on other forums have said similar conclusions making the videos proof of the claims. Most of the techniques done in the 3 Genbukan dojos and Bujinkan dojo were done at slow to meduim speed with no reistance or aliveness in training very different than say Judo randori. I have seen and been on the recieving end of higher rank kyus then me and also dan ranks and because of the false sense of performing the technqiues could not perform the technique on a resisting person. Other people on other forums have come to similar conclusions. Again it is not the technique because you find a lot of the techniques in Judo yet the majority are able to make it work at a fast pace against a resisting opponent and these are people at the lower kyus not upper dans. I know people are going to jump and say but they did not have Kuzushi,distance,Atemi,setup etc etc....True to an extent Judo trains against resistancing opponents at a fast speed and they do have to figure in all that as well. It is not that they did not set up,Atemi,Distance,Kuzushi it is that the X-Kan member had a false sense of security in performing the technique on a dead Uke and now can not figure out how to set up distance,timing,Kuzushi on a resisting opponent see the difference? I use Judo alot as an example because alot of similar techniques with the X-kans.

Hatsumi and his students in the olden days may have trained in a realistic fashion giving them awareness on how to apply the technique and what works what didn't what sets up a technique. But students today are not training like that in the majority are holding on to false pretense that they can defend themselves against an encounter.

I wish the X-kan would look at what the critics are saying even Ex-X-kan members who were in the X-kan before we may have a valid point.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I understand the argument for randori, and to an extent I agree with it.
However, training slow and medium speed definitely has its advantages too. If you learn something new, you do it slow, just to learn the correct movement. Then comes medium speed in order to get a feeling for the flow. Then comes high speed.

At least, that is how it is done in my dojo. I had the luck of training a lot with my sensei in private, and by the time I knew what I was doing regarding some basic techniques, he really picked up the pace and started mixing various attacks.

Currently, the only techniques I have been pressured at high speed is tai sabaki though. A couple of times during punch / block drill, my sensei has attacked me with the warning that he would try to hit me full power full speed. And from what I can judge, this was indeed the case. So I really think it depends on the dojo and the sensei.

By the time we grade, we have also tested against resisting opponents, even though we start out doing a lot of things slowly. We don't rush through the kyu grades so every student has lots of time to ingrain the new techniques.

 

[jks9199]

I am going to show examples of Genbukan training:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_techniques

As you can see the techniques are done with no pressure testing causing a false sense of being able to apply said technique in a realistic fashion.

This type of training is what most critics see and are critical of. Uke just standing there looking bored or day dreaming. You see it in countless video clips of Uke not resistancing,not trying to counter or follow up just dead compliance.

It is not the techniques that are lacking you find the same in every art it is the manner of how it is trained.

Without pressure testing the technique it stands a greater chance of failure. Alot of critics practice pressure testing in their arts like Judo randori and Muay Thai sparring which the average X-kan practicer is not engaging in at those speeds in the beginning at least.

In Japan when I trained in the Genbukan I put a little resistance when I was Uke and the technique could not be pulled off and this was not against a kyu rank mind you. Another time I remember I was Uke in America and the Tori had to to a reversal to put me down all he did was spin on his ***. I got plenty of these stories some of them were Kyu some of them were Dan rank ALL OF THEM HIGHER RANK THEN ME.

So IMO it is not the art its not the techniques it is people are blindly following and not questioning there teachers who they themselves may not know how to apply the technique under pressure. This is why the X-kans get flack the Sensei worshipping,Ninja role playing,no pressure testing. I am not the only one who has seen it in 4 dojos in America and in Japan others have stated similar findings train alive stay alive.

I'm not disputing your personal experiences -- but I don't think those videos are fair samples to prove your point, any more than a series of line drawings to show how to do a technique are proof that it works against resistance. The videos linked above are clips out of videos being sold as references and training aids. The techniques are being done slower (in some cases), and with no real resistance to simply show how to do them. It's like you're trying to prove that someone can't jam musically by showing them practicing scales...