The Crossing of Politics and Religion...

[Makalakumu]

Please take 8:30 minutes out of your life to listen to this NPR radio program. It really opened my eyes to a whole new world...

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4060577

If that doesn't work, here another link to NPR...

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgDate=04-Oct-2004&prgId=2

Scroll down to the title "Politics and the Prayer group" listen.

Please comment.

upnorthkyosa

PS - the foriegn sounding language you hear in the background is people speaking in tongues.

PPS - politics and religion and online debate...whew

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Huh.

Interesting that these people are voting for Bush, but also praying for God's will to be done - and hoping that if Kerry is voted in, it "won't catch Him off guard"

What is this with "knowing Jesus like I know him"? I don't understand that at all. Everyone has their own experience that no-one else can really access.

I like what one man said about your actions lining up with what you say you believe.

I'm not into speaking in tongues and shouting myself.

Interesting - someone praying for Jews to "come back to Israel". huh!

"Soft Christian persecution" is going on? Christians are being persecuted? In the USA today? WHATEVER! WHAT-EVER!

Again, what does it mean to "know Jesus"?

Interesting other woman who talks about being strong in your beliefs and standing up for the values you represent.

Ted Kennedy hates people? Aren't people angry at him for being such a softie liberal?

Hmmm.

Very interesing - thanks for the link!

 

[Makalakumu]

FM - there is soooo much weird stuff in that peice, that I just don't even know how to comment. I think that this peice gives a rare glimpse into the goings-on regarding the Christian Right though. Like I said, a new world...

One of the things that disturbs me most regarding this peice is the fact that these beliefs are not open to question. If you question, you "will go to hell" as a few of them put it in not so many words.

In my opinion, political dialogue is only enhanced by questioning. Not only is it enhanced, it is policed. This type of dialogue, in my opinion, could probably lead to a lot of abuse...

upnorthkyosa

PS - ...order

 

[michaeledward]

I do listen to the 'O'Reilly Factor' when I am in my car .... I heard some of the interview with the President last week. I missed this, though:

GEORGE W. BUSH (with Bill O'Reilly in 2000): "Well, I -- yeah, and I'm not so sure he (Jesus) addressed the death penalty itself in the New Testament. Maybe he did."
THE GOSPEL OF JOHN; CHAPTER 8, VERSES 4-7:
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Do you suppose these Christians' are aware of the President's incredible lack of understanding of Christian doctrine?
As for this NPR article, I don't think it all that big of a deal. Fundamentalist Christians just talk like this all the time.

I proposed to my wife in a hot air balloon ride. Our pilot was a Born-Again Christian. Her balloon was titled "His Amazing Grace". We were having a wonderful ride, right up until the point the third propane tank started to run low on fuel. When our pilot started praying out loud, 'Oh Jesus, I know you will find a safe landing place for us. I know your Spirit is looking over this craft and will work to safely bring us down to Earth. I thank you for this Jesus." ... well, my wife, who still is not fond of heights, just about messed her pants. She looked really scared. She was really counting on the pilot's skill to land the craft. It's just the way these people are.

Karl Rove is betting big time on these folks turning out on November 2.

 

[Tgace]

I dont know how a question about the separation of religion and politics gets turned into making an example of a person with faith....the baloon guy wasnt in office was he?

I see nothing wrong with a person praying in a tough situation...guess thats just the kind of person I am though.

 

[Makalakumu]

I see nothing wrong with a person praying in a tough situation...guess thats just the kind of person I am though.

I am totally with you on this. I am wondering about what the crossing of religion and politics portents regarding voting.

 

[michaeledward]

I dont know how a question about the separation of religion and politics gets turned into making an example of a person with faith....the baloon guy wasnt in office was he?

I see nothing wrong with a person praying in a tough situation...guess thats just the kind of person I am though.

Gee, I didn't see it as a question about the separation of religion and politics. I saw it as a story about Fundamentalist Christians. They are entitled to vote too, and I am not proposing any litmus test.

No, the ballon guy (actually a little old grammie) wasn't in office. But, my personal anecdote is related to the last sentence in the previous paragraphs. Fundamentalist Christians talk like this all the time. It doesn't matter what they are doing, prayer is a part of it.

Grocery Shopping "Oh, Jesus, thank you for putting this white bread on sale."
Lost in Traffic, "Oh, Jesus, I know you are going to guide us to our destination."
Got a headache, "Jesus, you said that when two or more of your followers are together in your name, you are there with them, we ask for the healing grace of your name, Jesus."

This is not in any way meant to slander anyone's beliefs. This is not in any way hyperbole. I spent several years in my youth as a part of an evangelical movement, and participated in these behaviors myself. This is just the way these people speak. No big deal to me.

At the end of the day, however, I would prefer to have a skilled pilot at the helm, rather than a faithful believer.

 

[Tgace]

I agree that Religon shouldnt be "institutionalized" in a government system. However this is a free country and politicians are free to express their religious views, if a majority of voters believe the same thing than thats the way it goes. Where you draw the line is the problem. Government passing laws regarding laws is absolutely wrong.

The problem as I see it is that much of our "moral training" about right and wrong has a religious base. A la the whole abortion mess. Religion is knee deep in it, but hinges on a more philosophical/scientific point. (at what point is a fetus a separate entity)

I dont know what the solution is...tell politicians they cant mention religion?

 

[Tgace]

At the end of the day, however, I would prefer to have a skilled pilot at the helm, rather than a faithful believer.

Since you are still here Im assuming the baloon guy was both. Separate issues arent they?

 

[michaeledward]

Since you are still here Im assuming the baloon guy was both. Separate issues arent they?

I got into the balloon with her, because she was a licensed balloon pilot. Her personal beliefs were really none my business. She may have trusted her faith. I however, placed my faith in the FAA Regulation Part 61.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8fcf8a992fec26f3929cc552d6759294&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.5.1.9

 

[Tgace]

Right...so her praying make you doubt her skill?

 

[michaeledward]

Right...so her praying make you doubt her skill?

No. Did I say that?

I thought I said that Fundamentalist Christians pray about everything. I don't think I made any judgements about this statement. I did say that it made my wife nervous, who was also hoping the pilot was skilled rather than blessed.

 

[Tgace]

Maybe were just miscommunicating.

The impression I had was "I was in a hot air balloon with a religious wacko once" and implied that somehow these people arent to be trusted in their opinion of who should be president.

 

[michaeledward]

Maybe were just miscommunicating.

The impression I had was "I was in a hot air balloon with a religious wacko once" and implied that somehow these people arent to be trusted in their opinion of who should be president.

That is certainly not my intention at all, nor my beliefs.

If they (religous wackos) are United States Citizens, over the age of 18, the I hope that they do exercise their right to vote.

I find religous wackos harmless. I was one, once. They are entitled to their opinions concerning God, they don't bother me at all; as long as they don't bother me.

 

[Makalakumu]

I agree that Religon shouldnt be "institutionalized" in a government system. However this is a free country and politicians are free to express their religious views, if a majority of voters believe the same thing than thats the way it goes. Where you draw the line is the problem. Government passing laws regarding laws is absolutely wrong.

The problem as I see it is that much of our "moral training" about right and wrong has a religious base. A la the whole abortion mess. Religion is knee deep in it, but hinges on a more philosophical/scientific point. (at what point is a fetus a separate entity)

I dont know what the solution is...tell politicians they cant mention religion?

Yet the merging of the two is occuring. Groups that claim ownership to universal truth are picking candidates. I see churches pushing candidates on their signs up here all of the time. This is disturbing to me...especially when two churches who both claim universal truth pick different candidates. The bottom line is that I don't want to see this country voting for correct morality.

upnorthkyosa

 

[loki09789]

I am totally with you on this. I am wondering about what the crossing of religion and politics portents regarding voting.

If people are going to vote based on moral fiber and values, then they will at times be basing their voting plan on religious faith.

I think this is an extreme case of that though. My aunt use to have us pray before we drove anywhere and the give thanks that we arrived safely and then pray when we left again.......

I suppose it could be the opposite end of the spectrum of people who vote entirely based on personal/emotional reactions to the person instead of the platform or issues/policies....

 

[loki09789]

Yet the merging of the two is occuring. Groups that claim ownership to universal truth are picking candidates. I see churches pushing candidates on their signs up here all of the time. This is disturbing to me...especially when two churches who both claim universal truth pick different candidates. The bottom line is that I don't want to see this country voting for correct morality.

upnorthkyosa

That is exactly what is happening whether it is religiously founded or politically founded.

The idea that the Republicans have a set of values that they prioritize a certain way (and even within each party it isn't 'universally accepted' even though it is described as 'universally true') and the Democratic party does it differently. If there is an alignment in values between a political party (or even a political party that is religiously based in it's values) and a religious ideology then you will find the religious types jumping on board....

Consider how the basic difference between the majority of 'protestant' christian groups have a 'bottom up'/democratic bent to them and the "Catholic" body of churches (Orthodox/Roman///) work from the "Top Down"/Republican set up (even to the point of 'intersesion' from Saints and Dead relatives 'representing' you to your God in prayer).

Moral structures have always been there.

 

[heretic888]

I found this tidbit interesting:

Do you suppose these Christians' are aware of the President's incredible lack of understanding of Christian doctrine?

Probably not. Then again, the vast majority of "Christians" of any demographic have an incredible lack of understanding of "Christian doctrine" themselves. The moral issues set aside, there is an entire body of theological ideas as a whole that are "selectively" emphasized in the churches while others go to the wayside.

My guess is that many don't really want to know. They are perfectly content with what was told to them as a child, or what their local pastor/priest told them last Sunday. Ignorance, like violence, is nasty, nasty cycle.

Regarding the possible "merging" of religion and politics, this is nothing new. Most of our basic principles and moralisms come from religous or a-religous philosophical formulations.

But, as for particular religous groups "picking" candidates, that's gotta be a new one.... I wonder who among that group decides which candidate is going to be represented??

Laterz.

 

[loki09789]

I found this tidbit interesting:



Probably not. Then again, the vast majority of "Christians" of any demographic have an incredible lack of understanding of "Christian doctrine" themselves. The moral issues set aside, there is an entire body of theological ideas as a whole that are "selectively" emphasized in the churches while others go to the wayside.

My guess is that many don't really want to know. They are perfectly content with what was told to them as a child, or what their local pastor/priest told them last Sunday. Ignorance, like violence, is nasty, nasty cycle.

Regarding the possible "merging" of religion and politics, this is nothing new. Most of our basic principles and moralisms come from religous or a-religous philosophical formulations.

But, as for particular religous groups "picking" candidates, that's gotta be a new one.... I wonder who among that group decides which candidate is going to be represented??

Laterz.

Ironic how the separation of church and state and the motive for some to come to the 'new world' was to get away from divinely selected leadership, and yet here we are......

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Ironic how the separation of church and state and the motive for some to come to the 'new world' was to get away from divinely selected leadership, and yet here we are......

That is interesting. And perhaps a little eerie.

As I've droned on about in other threads, although I am a person with religious beliefs, I also think that we should use our reason to the best of our abilities. I sincerely hope the folks in the broadcast were trying to harness both their feelings of faith and the questions they had in their minds about our political candidates.

And I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that you know who God is going to pick, which was kind of implied once or twice in the radio program.