The BJJ research lab answers your questions: fighting on a sofa

[Tony Dismukes]

You should give test it out to see if you can use the BJJ techniques when pinned to a couch. I've never seen any self-defense lesson in regard to that situation beyond watching for tell-tale signs that a guy is getting too close, don't stay out the couch get up and create distance.

This question came up in another thread and I thought it deserved its own thread.

As promised, I turned one of my classes into a research project. I had planned to do this next week, but I got called in to cover another instructor's class tonight and took advantage of the opportunity.

At our gym we have a couple of couches near the wall where visitors can watch the action on the mats. I commandeered one of those for our experiments. I had the two biggest guys in class (one a former strongman competitor and the other a former high school football player) take turns being the bad guy on top.
We ran three different scenarios:

• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender laying flat on the couch, attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, attacker is trying to both hold down the victim and throw strikes, defender trying to escape without getting beat up

With 6 of us taking turns playing the defender in each scenario, we got through 18 rounds of live practice, which took up the whole class. Everybody had fun and got a good workout.

As I predicted, fundamental BJJ principles were effective, but the additional variables meant that the details played out differently every time and there was no cookie cutter recipe for the exact technique to use.

Observations and lessons:

• Escaping the pin on the couch was harder than on the floor, but I'm not sure if it's inherently harder or if it's just that we have a lot less practice in that environment.
• There is definitely applicable technique for the person on top who wants to pin someone down. As the session went on, the guys on top learned from the early successful escapes and adapted their position and movement to make it harder and harder for the person on bottom.
• The most common successful escape was for the defender to use frames and squirming to get their feet on the attackers hips and kick him away or sweep him over.
• The second most common successful escape was for the defender to get his feet planted on the couch at an angle which allowed him to bridge the attacker over. Getting one foot braced on the back of the couch was a big help.
• The third most successful escape was probably some variation of the defender getting his feet underneath him (on the floor or the couch), coupled with posting on a free arm to fight his way back to standing. Standard wrestling concepts apply, just the details were different.
• The squishiness of the cushions robbed the defender of explosive bridging power, but on the other hand it offered more opportunities for squirming and creating room.
• Sliding off the couch onto the floor (where more standard techniques could be applied) was successful at least once, but care had to be taken to go down properly so that the defender didn't bash his head on the hard floor.
• Closed guard is not ideal. It allowed the defender to protect against damage, but the normal possibilities to sweep, submit, or stand up weren't there because of the defenders limited mobility.
• Butterfly guard was very helpful as it allowed the defender to create space and set up the escapes detailed above.
• Armbar opportunities really aren't there due to the defenders limited mobility.
• Chokes are much more available. I choked out my attacker twice and a couple of my students at least set up choke attempts.
• Proper use of frames to create or maintain space is important in setting up just about all the escapes.
• When the attacker is trying to strike, they create space which makes the escape easier. (Although the defender has the additional distraction of defending the strikes while setting up an escape)

All in all, it was a worthwhile use of class time. Thanks to @JowGaWolf for suggesting it.

Additional thoughts:

The experiment was possible only because all the students in that class had a solid foundation in grappling fundamentals. Trying to coach someone who didn't have that background through the scenario would have been very difficult because the additional variables made it impossible to just say "do x,y,z".

If anyone else wants to try this experiment, be very mindful of safety. Our couch was sitting on a concrete floor and against a cargo bay door that has exposed metal hardware. Everybody who wasn't engaged in the current match was assigned to stand around ready to catch anyone who was in danger of falling head first onto the concrete or otherwise colliding with something hard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This question came up in another thread and I thought it deserved its own thread.

As promised, I turned one of my classes into a research project. I had planned to do this next week, but I got called in to cover another instructor's class tonight and took advantage of the opportunity.

At our gym we have a couple of couches near the wall where visitors can watch the action on the mats. I commandeered one of those for our experiments. I had the two biggest guys in class (one a former strongman competitor and the other a former high school football player) take turns being the bad guy on top.
We ran three different scenarios:

• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender laying flat on the couch, attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, attacker is trying to both hold down the victim and throw strikes, defender trying to escape without getting beat up

With 6 of us taking turns playing the defender in each scenario, we got through 18 rounds of live practice, which took up the whole class. Everybody had fun and got a good workout.

As I predicted, fundamental BJJ principles were effective, but the additional variables meant that the details played out differently every time and there was no cookie cutter recipe for the exact technique to use.

Observations and lessons:

• Escaping the pin on the couch was harder than on the floor, but I'm not sure if it's inherently harder or if it's just that we have a lot less practice in that environment.
• There is definitely applicable technique for the person on top who wants to pin someone down. As the session went on, the guys on top learned from the early successful escapes and adapted their position and movement to make it harder and harder for the person on bottom.
• The most common successful escape was for the defender to use frames and squirming to get their feet on the attackers hips and kick him away or sweep him over.
• The second most common successful escape was for the defender to get his feet planted on the couch at an angle which allowed him to bridge the attacker over. Getting one foot braced on the back of the couch was a big help.
• The third most successful escape was probably some variation of the defender getting his feet underneath him (on the floor or the couch), coupled with posting on a free arm to fight his way back to standing. Standard wrestling concepts apply, just the details were different.
• The squishiness of the cushions robbed the defender of explosive bridging power, but on the other hand it offered more opportunities for squirming and creating room.
• Sliding off the couch onto the floor (where more standard techniques could be applied) was successful at least once, but care had to be taken to go down properly so that the defender didn't bash his head on the hard floor.
• Closed guard is not ideal. It allowed the defender to protect against damage, but the normal possibilities to sweep, submit, or stand up weren't there because of the defenders limited mobility.
• Butterfly guard was very helpful as it allowed the defender to create space and set up the escapes detailed above.
• Armbar opportunities really aren't there due to the defenders limited mobility.
• Chokes are much more available. I choked out my attacker twice and a couple of my students at least set up choke attempts.
• Proper use of frames to create or maintain space is important in setting up just about all the escapes.
• When the attacker is trying to strike, they create space which makes the escape easier. (Although the defender has the additional distraction of defending the strikes while setting up an escape)

All in all, it was a worthwhile use of class time. Thanks to @JowGaWolf for suggesting it.

Additional thoughts:

The experiment was possible only because all the students in that class had a solid foundation in grappling fundamentals. Trying to coach someone who didn't have that background through the scenario would have been very difficult because the additional variables made it impossible to just say "do x,y,z".

If anyone else wants to try this experiment, be very mindful of safety. Our couch was sitting on a concrete floor and against a cargo bay door that has exposed metal hardware. Everybody who wasn't engaged in the current match was assigned to stand around ready to catch anyone who was in danger of falling head first onto the concrete or otherwise colliding with something hard.

Thanks for doing the experiment and sharing your findings, Tony. Similar in concept to what I'd expect, and it's nice to validate that with folks with more ground experience and expertise than me. I'd like to see how this plays out with the more rudimentary groundwork we do. Makes me wish I had some more experienced students right now to experiment with...and a couch. Odd how there are no couches in the fitness room....

 

[oftheherd1]

Thanks Tony. Great stuff!

 

[KangTsai]

I guess the best thing to avoid would rolling off the couch and getting yourself lodged in between the coffee table and the couch.

 

[Buka]

Sofa King awesome you did that class. Rock on, Tony.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This question came up in another thread and I thought it deserved its own thread.

As promised, I turned one of my classes into a research project. I had planned to do this next week, but I got called in to cover another instructor's class tonight and took advantage of the opportunity.

At our gym we have a couple of couches near the wall where visitors can watch the action on the mats. I commandeered one of those for our experiments. I had the two biggest guys in class (one a former strongman competitor and the other a former high school football player) take turns being the bad guy on top.
We ran three different scenarios:

• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender laying flat on the couch, attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, attacker is trying to both hold down the victim and throw strikes, defender trying to escape without getting beat up

With 6 of us taking turns playing the defender in each scenario, we got through 18 rounds of live practice, which took up the whole class. Everybody had fun and got a good workout.

As I predicted, fundamental BJJ principles were effective, but the additional variables meant that the details played out differently every time and there was no cookie cutter recipe for the exact technique to use.

Observations and lessons:

• Escaping the pin on the couch was harder than on the floor, but I'm not sure if it's inherently harder or if it's just that we have a lot less practice in that environment.
• There is definitely applicable technique for the person on top who wants to pin someone down. As the session went on, the guys on top learned from the early successful escapes and adapted their position and movement to make it harder and harder for the person on bottom.
• The most common successful escape was for the defender to use frames and squirming to get their feet on the attackers hips and kick him away or sweep him over.
• The second most common successful escape was for the defender to get his feet planted on the couch at an angle which allowed him to bridge the attacker over. Getting one foot braced on the back of the couch was a big help.
• The third most successful escape was probably some variation of the defender getting his feet underneath him (on the floor or the couch), coupled with posting on a free arm to fight his way back to standing. Standard wrestling concepts apply, just the details were different.
• The squishiness of the cushions robbed the defender of explosive bridging power, but on the other hand it offered more opportunities for squirming and creating room.
• Sliding off the couch onto the floor (where more standard techniques could be applied) was successful at least once, but care had to be taken to go down properly so that the defender didn't bash his head on the hard floor.
• Closed guard is not ideal. It allowed the defender to protect against damage, but the normal possibilities to sweep, submit, or stand up weren't there because of the defenders limited mobility.
• Butterfly guard was very helpful as it allowed the defender to create space and set up the escapes detailed above.
• Armbar opportunities really aren't there due to the defenders limited mobility.
• Chokes are much more available. I choked out my attacker twice and a couple of my students at least set up choke attempts.
• Proper use of frames to create or maintain space is important in setting up just about all the escapes.
• When the attacker is trying to strike, they create space which makes the escape easier. (Although the defender has the additional distraction of defending the strikes while setting up an escape)

All in all, it was a worthwhile use of class time. Thanks to @JowGaWolf for suggesting it.

Additional thoughts:

The experiment was possible only because all the students in that class had a solid foundation in grappling fundamentals. Trying to coach someone who didn't have that background through the scenario would have been very difficult because the additional variables made it impossible to just say "do x,y,z".

If anyone else wants to try this experiment, be very mindful of safety. Our couch was sitting on a concrete floor and against a cargo bay door that has exposed metal hardware. Everybody who wasn't engaged in the current match was assigned to stand around ready to catch anyone who was in danger of falling head first onto the concrete or otherwise colliding with something hard.

Awesome. I really appreciate it. very informative and detailed with the observations. Right now just have to question.
Was there an opportunity for someone to try the BJJ techniques against someone who was larger or heavier? I'm thinking about the same weight different that a smaller woman and an average size man would have.

What was the most common method for trying to pin the person down? Were the pinned down attempts Bjj influenced or non Bjj influenced? For example, some guy that doesn't know BJJ is just going to do whatever he can to pin someone down. I would like to hear some of the difficulties and challenges that occurred to actually pin the person down since those challenges may be opportunities for escape for someone that doesn't know BJJ?

Also what was the worse escape attempt? What was the one thing that was just a big "Never ever try to escape this way" warning sign.

I like things like this because it take the skill sets out of the competitive ring and put it into practical self-defense use.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sofa King awesome you did that class. Rock on, Tony.

Perfect lol.. in both meanings.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Was there an opportunity for someone to try the BJJ techniques against someone who was larger or heavier? I'm thinking about the same weight different that a smaller woman and an average size man would have.

The biggest weight discrepancy between attacker and defender was probably about 50-60 pounds. Average was probably about 20-30 pounds. I had hoped that one of the female students might participate, but the ones present that day had just finished another class and were heading home already. One female purple belt did say that her previous school had done the same sort of exercise and that she considered it a great drill.

What was the most common method for trying to pin the person down? Were the pinned down attempts Bjj influenced or non Bjj influenced? For example, some guy that doesn't know BJJ is just going to do whatever he can to pin someone down. I would like to hear some of the difficulties and challenges that occurred to actually pin the person down since those challenges may be opportunities for escape for someone that doesn't know BJJ?

Due to the geometry of the couch, the attackers couldn't exactly use standard pinning positions. However they were both experienced grapplers and used grappling (BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/Sambo) principles to stay tight and heavy on the defender. They experimented with different positions. In general, it seemed to work best when they kept one foot on the floor to provide leverage for driving into the defender and used their hands to grip the defender's head or clothing or the couch so as to pull themselves in tighter and prevent the defender from pushing them away. Any time they didn't keep one foot on the floor, bridge escapes become much easier.

They experimented some with using a knee on the defenders belly to pin him down, but straddling the chest seemed to work better. I've been teaching some classes lately on using hip pressure and one of the attackers was making full use of those lessons to squash the defenders.

An untrained attacker would have been much, much easier to dislodge.

Also what was the worse escape attempt? What was the one thing that was just a big "Never ever try to escape this way" warning sign.

If a defender got their head stuck in the corner between the back and the armrest and then allowed their body to get crushed too tightly, then there was a good chance they wouldn't escape.

Sometimes the combatants would start sliding off the couch during the struggle. This wasn't bad unless the defender forgot to stay aware of how their head was going towards the floor. One time the defender was sliding over the armrest and decided to try throwing his legs up for a triangle choke. If we hadn't stopped him, this would have resulted in falling backwards two feet directly on his head (on a concrete floor) with both their body weights driving the impact. I had them rewind the action and showed him how to come down to the floor safely before attempting the triangle choke.

As previously noted, achieving full guard tended to leave the defender stuck on the couch. (Although it did allow the defender to protect against taking damage.)

A couple of times the defender noted the opportunity to try striking or grabbing the attackers groin. I showed that in the position they were in, they lacked the leverage to do serious damage and pointed out that the attacker was in a position to inflict much more damage in retaliation if they went that route and just got him mad. (Later on, when a defender reached a position where they could effectively attack the groin without suffering reprisal, I pointed that out as well.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Any time they didn't keep one foot on the floor, bridge escapes become much easier.

They experimented some with using a knee on the defenders belly to pin him down, but straddling the chest seemed to work better.

This is definitely good to know, if it was difficult for you guys then that gives me hope that if someone who doesn't train BJJ would have a very difficult time pinning a person when they aren't able to place the foot on the floor. That may increase the victims chances of being able to escape even if it's just a slim chance. (in the context of someone not punching downward while trying to pin). At the least it most likely one be something that makes the situation worse for the victim.

If a defender got their head stuck in the corner between the back and the armrest and then allowed their body to get crushed too tightly, then there was a good chance they wouldn't escape.

I'll mark this as a danger zone in my notes. Being pinned from three sides. The back of the couch, the corner, and the attacker. I was thinking the same issue would happen if the struggle went from couch to floor, where the person is now pinned in by the couch, the coffee table, especially if it's a heavy one, and the attacker. The attacker would be limited too but I'm not quite able to picture how limited the attacker would be in that position.

You are very detailed. That's awesome.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW - I should note that these specific findings applied to this specific environmental setup. We were working on a heavy, soft couch, which was braced against the wall.

If it had been a lighter, unbraced couch, it might have been possible to tip it over backwards, which would have given good opportunities for escape. If the cushions had been detachable or if there hadn't been armrests then it might have been easier to slide to the floor. If there had been an end table, then it might have held objects which could be used as improvised weapons. (Although using improvised weapons from the bottom effectively can be tricky if you don't have both grappling and weapon skills.) If the couch had exposed wood corners, those could be used as weapons for whoever can get the right angle. (I've done that before while sparring in a friend's basement.)

The physical principles of grappling apply regardless. The details of how that might happen can change as you add in more variables.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BTW - I should note that these specific findings applied to this specific environmental setup. We were working on a heavy, soft couch, which was braced against the wall.

If it had been a lighter, unbraced couch, it might have been possible to tip it over backwards, which would have given good opportunities for escape. If the cushions had been detachable or if there hadn't been armrests then it might have been easier to slide to the floor. If there had been an end table, then it might have held objects which could be used as improvised weapons. (Although using improvised weapons from the bottom effectively can be tricky if you don't have both grappling and weapon skills.) If the couch had exposed wood corners, those could be used as weapons for whoever can get the right angle. (I've done that before while sparring in a friend's basement.)

The physical principles of grappling apply regardless. The details of how that might happen can change as you add in more variables.

I hadn't even thought about the couch tipping. That would be definitely in the "victim's" favor almost every time. The coffee table presents itself as an interesting target if the escape shifts the attacker in that direction (which pretty much assumes he didn't plant that outside foot on the floor). The depth and width of the couch would also change the environment (more/less room in each direction).

 

[Balrog]

This question came up in another thread and I thought it deserved its own thread.

As promised, I turned one of my classes into a research project. I had planned to do this next week, but I got called in to cover another instructor's class tonight and took advantage of the opportunity.

At our gym we have a couple of couches near the wall where visitors can watch the action on the mats. I commandeered one of those for our experiments. I had the two biggest guys in class (one a former strongman competitor and the other a former high school football player) take turns being the bad guy on top.
We ran three different scenarios:

• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender laying flat on the couch, attacker on top, defender trying to escape, grappling only
• defender sitting on the couch with attacker on top, attacker is trying to both hold down the victim and throw strikes, defender trying to escape without getting beat up
  
  ...snip

That is great stuff. I wish I had a couch in my school to practice the same thing from a TKD perspective. Hmmm....guess I need to drive around and look at curbsides.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Did a similar exercise yesterday with defending inside a car against an attacker who is pushing you down across the far seat and getting on top of you. Didn't get as much data because there were only two of us. The key seems to be maintaining proper structure.

If your structure gets compromised while your head gets shoved in the corner between the seat and the door, you're going to have a hard time. If you maintain good structure, the defense isn't too hard (assuming you have practiced to develop good defense against strikes from bottom of guard).

In some ways it was simpler than the couch scenario because the line of attack is more constricted.

Now I need to run some experiments with the attacker pulling the defender out of the car or attacking from the back seat while the defender is in the front.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Did a similar exercise yesterday with defending inside a car against an attacker who is pushing you down across the far seat and getting on top of you. Didn't get as much data because there were only two of us. The key seems to be maintaining proper structure.

If your structure gets compromised while your head gets shoved in the corner between the seat and the door, you're going to have a hard time. If you maintain good structure, the defense isn't too hard (assuming you have practiced to develop good defense against strikes from bottom of guard).

In some ways it was simpler than the couch scenario because the line of attack is more constricted.

Now I need to run some experiments with the attacker pulling the defender out of the car or attacking from the back seat while the defender is in the front.

Thanks for running these experiments, Tony!

 

[hoshin1600]

Did a similar exercise yesterday with defending inside a car against an attacker who is pushing you down across the far seat and getting on top of you. Didn't get as much data because there were only two of us. The key seems to be maintaining proper structure.

If your structure gets compromised while your head gets shoved in the corner between the seat and the door, you're going to have a hard time. If you maintain good structure, the defense isn't too hard (assuming you have practiced to develop good defense against strikes from bottom of guard).

In some ways it was simpler than the couch scenario because the line of attack is more constricted.

Now I need to run some experiments with the attacker pulling the defender out of the car or attacking from the back seat while the defender is in the front.

From a few real life attacks I have heard of, car attacks are difficult because the defender often ends up with his/her head and shoulders down by the floor, while the rest of the torso and legs remain on the seat. This is a real bad position to be in, more so when it is a rape situation.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

From a few real life attacks I have heard of, car attacks are difficult because the defender often ends up with his/her head and shoulders down by the floor, while the rest of the torso and legs remain on the seat. This is a real bad position to be in, more so when it is a rape situation.

I'll have to try starting in that position next time to see what I can figure out.