thats not chisao

[skinters]

there is something wich has been nagging away at me for a good while and i just could not put my finger on it until now.so here goes

now ive seen a lot of chisao and practiced enough to be confused by what and how chisao is to be performed.

now if your doing chisao with your partner and he bursts forwards with multiple attacks ,thats not chisao its a drill .and when i see the like of ip chun etc doing they chisao theres non of that just a constant sticking of hands with the odd one getting through .it seems totally different to what im being exposed to and seeing myself.

now to me anybody can do that work on a drill for half hour roll three times and burst forwards because thats what im seeing .

there dont seem to be no sensing the gap first and all patience out the window.

and before i hear there are different ways of doing chisao i dont think there is .to me there is the right way and the wrong way and as far as im concerned the right way is lost on a good few people.

sorry about my grammer and apparent attitude.

jase.

 

[graychuan]

Thing about chi sao is that it trains sensitivity. The Tan, Bong and Fook are the three treasures that chi sao is built upon. The Blocking or stopping of an attack should be done with minimal muscular force and mostly structure. You are already working off of a bridge so now comes the stopping the attack part. First there is the CHI(energy) then there is the Sao(hand or block). Off of the Tan, Bong and Fook one should work on stopping or suppressing attacks while using the structure and root of the stance. Sense the energy with a little forward (asking) energy of your own and roll to the proper structure or 'idea' of Tan, Bong or Fook. The attacks should be basic since in the chi sao exercise they all come off the Tan,Bong and Fook and you are working sensitivity instead of applications per se. Otherwise the spazzing out and chasing hands really does get you nowhere.
SO chi sao helps you define the proper structure and intent for each movement in the roll that best suports that movement. One thing in the Woo Fai Ching System that we do is that we use the Bong sao for body shots mainly. Lifting the elbow above the collarbone disconnects the Bong sao from the SLT structure( as we see it in the Woo system). There are others like Wu, Tan, Bui, Lops and such that deal with headshots just fine and are supported by our criterium for structure. But again thats just my lineange.

 

[mook jong man]

First of all i will say that i only have experience in the Tsui Seung Tin lineage , i haven't trained at other schools and have scant knowledge of their methods.

In the TST lineage chi sao is practiced in these ways , first of all you you have ordinary chi sao where you and your partner are just rolling and the odd strike will go through if someone senses a weakness or a gap , example : tan sao dropping , fook sau off center.

Then you also have chi sau sparring in which both students will be rolling , but also trying to disrupt the other persons balance by moving forward , pivoting etc .

While all this is going on they will be trying different trapping techniques and attempting to strike through on each other , but only if the trap is warranted , you cant do a trap if the other guys not making a mistake, although a highly skilled individual can induce you to make a mistake sometimes , generally speaking the best defence against trapping is perfect rolling.

Apart from those two forms of chi sao , i think anything else is a drill or an exercise , drills might include practising traps from a static position eg roll to a position , stop then execute appropriate trap , running palms exercises , lap sau etc .

Also with a drill or an exercise there is an element of co-operation with both partners , in chi sau sparring there is no co-operation , he is trying his best to hit you and you are trying your best to hit him .

The people you are seeing trying to burst forwards can make that work on a low level oppponent but on a highly skilled person the attack will be instantly dissolved and be a waste of energy .

Take it from me i was very pig headed when i first started because i came from a weight training background and thought i could just muscle through people , and i could on people in my grade which stroked my ego but against higher people using strength didn't work and could actually be used against you , BIGTIME.

My sifu said that trying to attack someone highly skilled in chi sau is like trying to hit a big inflatable leather ball that is spinning rapidly , once the attackers blows come into the circle made by the wing chun guys arms they are redirected or neutralised by the shapes of tan , bong and fook.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Interestingly enough, to me, Chi sao IS a drill.

I practice Chi Sao in different levels of pressure, intention, speed and purpose.

Here is what I mean.

To focus on structure and sensitivity, it is important to do the rolling hands (lok sao) in a relaxed, firm manner.

Chi sao practice can represent the phase of a physical confrontation when the attacker and defender have closed the gap and the instinctive "OH SHEET" startle response goes up and contact with the arms of the attacker begins. In other words, there is a skipping of the "measuring" phase in out of contact range of San Da.

Thus you can practice concentratin on redirecting force and controlling the partner while maitaining and not risking structure.

You can then add more pressure and speed to train reflexes and sequences with timing and sensitivity. You can in later stages go with more "street speed" to play around and experiment with sequences and reflexes and more resistance and have fun.

There is much more to this.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[KamonGuy2]

Nice thread...
Poon sao is the roll that you traditionally see being performed by Ip Chun and other Sifus

Chi sao is a free explosive drill that can be done numerous ways

It is bad to do fixed motions (roll three times and attack, roll three times and attack etc). You should feel for where an attack is relevant, rather than just hit out because you want to make the drill 'more exciting'

The pont of doing it is that you are practising against someone who has good skill and energy. You build up such a good degree of sensiivity, structure and energy with people who know what they are doing, that when you go into a streetfight, you basically own the attacker (because he doesn't know what they are doing!)

The definition of a drill to me, is an exercise that has a set format. In chi sao at Kamon there is no set format. We can be in poon sao, bil sao bridges, clicnhes etc

Obviously it is better to work poon sao as much as posible as it improves the structure of bong sao and tan sao and trains position

 

[skinters]

thanks all

an example of what im getting at is one of my partners i roll with does the same thing everytime ,its getting to the point where i just dont get nothing out of our practice together and almost dread it.

its like roll 1,2,3 pak and strike the same move over and over ,its like he is stuck in the same movement and cannot get out of it .

the above is just an example but i feel with a lot of people they go through the same motions without thinking what chisao is all about .

i have to be thinking of my training as more consistent and serious otherwise im just wasting time ive not got .

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

If you found the pattern, interrupt it. Use it as an opportunity for you to learn.

For example, this partner uses only the pak sao entry. Use it as an opportunity to practice your different counters, or do an entry yourself at 2 1/2!

You can counter with bong/lap and turn, or tan and step forward, I don't know... so many options to choose from! Make your Chi sao better tasting and less filling! Just have fun!

For extra fun add the Chin Na into it. Or just practice frustrating the attempts so the entry changes.

I would have so much fun in your shoes!

Hope that helps!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[graychuan]

Greetings.

If you found the pattern, interrupt it. Use it as an opportunity for you to learn.

For example, this partner uses only the pak sao entry. Use it as an opportunity to practice your different counters, or do an entry yourself at 2 1/2!

You can counter with bong/lap and turn, or tan and step forward, I don't know... so many options to choose from! Make your Chi sao better tasting and less filling! Just have fun!

For extra fun add the Chin Na into it. Or just practice frustrating the attempts so the entry changes.

I would have so much fun in your shoes!

Hope that helps!

Juan M. Mercado

Thats some damn good advice, Juan. Incidentally some lineages do sets of Chin Na in there Luk/Phoon Sao drills and call it Kum Na. Have you heard of this term?

Peace.

 

[profesormental]

Nope, I haven't hear the term.

I start Chin Na into the poon sao/lok sao at the same time I teach Chum Kiu and the controls and throws from Bil Jee.

Yet I never do Chin Na without a a mechanism to misalign the body of the attacker, and since in good rolling chin na manipulations are really hard to pull of on a resisting opponent, we do them after an entry.

Otherwise we do chaining of Chin Na and add them to the sequences as to en in controls instead of beatings.

Both are fun anyways!

Again, Chi sao is THE drill that can have many evolutions, purposes and objectives.


Stating them BEFORE the exercise starts and paying attention/focusing on that intention should yield more effective and efficient training.

Hope it helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[skinters]

Juan M. Mercado

again thanks you lighten my frustration .

 

[profesormental]

You're Welcome!

Remember that most of us that are at Instructor levels have had the same frustrations without the advantage of practitioner forums.

You would be amazed at the acceleration of my skill development, learning and expression abilities since I started to communicate in bulletin boards, IRC, newsgroups and now forums.

This has made me a better practitioner and a better teacher. And I have to thank most those people that had the virtue and courage to ask questions.

For that, I thank you.

One more thing. If you're doing your Chi Sao rolling right, no arm Chin Na should work on you. NONE. I mean it. Just try it.

It is easily taken care of with so many "sao" that I won't even go into that here.

The Chin Na can work only after misalignment has occurred, or it is muscled in to cause the misalignment (thus being inefficient and mostly ineffective, thus not being Chin Na...).

If proof of this claim is needed, please ask, and I will elaborate.

On the timing of opening a door and entering in Chi Sao, I was taught to feel the balance in the rolling hands, and when a misbalance is felt, open the gate and attack. Thus thinking about setting up an entry is different from the process of sensing a door that is open.

Both are important, and should be developed. One is very important for self defense, the other for attack and control.

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[graychuan]

One more thing. If you're doing your Chi Sao rolling right, no arm Chin Na should work on you. NONE. I mean it. Just try it.

It is easily taken care of with so many "sao" that I won't even go into that here.

This I can sincerely vouch for. I havent caught SIfu Rahim yet. Juan you know what you are talking about, Man!

~Cg~

 

[skinters]

another thing i have noticed about chisao is it tells you a lot about yourself,and i have noticed some will practicly do anything to avoid sparring,such as stopping to analize every movment, and just generaly doing anything but any prolonged action .

its hard to put my finger on it but i get the feeling with a lot of people that they are afraid to let go and get invloved in some proper exchanges .

when i chisao with my sifu its exciting, chaotic,and im left breathless afterwards,but with anyone else theres a lot of stopping and look at this move and countless nonsense ,anything but face themselves .

i feel that with chisao you really see what your made of and i see some that just dont want to spar with it through fear of being found out ...i really dont know .

i can understand it to a certain degree everytime i chisao i feel that nervousness and excitment build up ...its a bit like doing something scary but you go through it all the same .

 

[KamonGuy2]

another thing i have noticed about chisao is it tells you a lot about yourself,and i have noticed some will practicly do anything to avoid sparring,such as stopping to analize every movment, and just generaly doing anything but any prolonged action .

its hard to put my finger on it but i get the feeling with a lot of people that they are afraid to let go and get invloved in some proper exchanges .

when i chisao with my sifu its exciting, chaotic,and im left breathless afterwards,but with anyone else theres a lot of stopping and look at this move and countless nonsense ,anything but face themselves .

i feel that with chisao you really see what your made of and i see some that just dont want to spar with it through fear of being found out ...i really dont know .

i can understand it to a certain degree everytime i chisao i feel that nervousness and excitment build up ...its a bit like doing something scary but you go through it all the same .

Chi sao is not really a sparring tool. You are working on building up sensitivity. If you start oing down that path you will end up being a bad martial artist - only concerned with 'point scoring' or tapping your opponent on the chest just to get a hit in. If you build up good technique, good stick and good movement, it doesn't matter whether you can hit in with chi sao or not.

When it comes to dealing with attacks (however your school/ class trains it) you should feel a good improvement in your control over that situation

There is nothing wrong with putting each other under pressure. At kamon we encourage students to test structure and put pressue onto each student. But that is very different from trying to use chi sao as a spar. Its just asking for trouble.

There will always exist students who don't like fighting and who don't want to spar. i try and stay away from that camp. If you are a serious martial artist you will explore ALL avenues of martial arts and not limit yourself to being either good at fighting, good at sparring, good at forms, good at using energy, good at exercise, good at drills etc

You should attempt to work on all these areas

But at the end of the day, as long as a student does what his Sifu asks and tries to help both himself and other students there shouldn't be a problem

 

[skinters]

Chi sao is not really a sparring tool. You are working on building up sensitivity. If you start oing down that path you will end up being a bad martial artist - only concerned with 'point scoring' or tapping your opponent on the chest just to get a hit in. If you build up good technique, good stick and good movement, it doesn't matter whether you can hit in with chi sao or not.

When it comes to dealing with attacks (however your school/ class trains it) you should feel a good improvement in your control over that situation

There is nothing wrong with putting each other under pressure. At kamon we encourage students to test structure and put pressue onto each student. But that is very different from trying to use chi sao as a spar. Its just asking for trouble.

There will always exist students who don't like fighting and who don't want to spar. i try and stay away from that camp. If you are a serious martial artist you will explore ALL avenues of martial arts and not limit yourself to being either good at fighting, good at sparring, good at forms, good at using energy, good at exercise, good at drills etc

You should attempt to work on all these areas

But at the end of the day, as long as a student does what his Sifu asks and tries to help both himself and other students there shouldn't be a problem

your right chisao is not really a sparring tool,and maybe the word spar gives the wrong picture of what im trying to say .

im always trying to follow what i feel chisao is all about as far as im concerned,such as the sensitivity you mention (although we are already born with sensitivity in our arms ) that includes not seeking the hit,not being concerned with being hit,also not seeing your training partner as an apponent,or someone you have to beat or get the better of.

i notice a lot of people just dont like the contact,and get quite flustred and annoyed if any is made.this in turn makes them hold back and stop any action from unfolding naturely, there has to be a contunious roll and flow to chisao with any openings taken in a controlled manner.

when we do chisao at my class there is contact made but its a gentle tap on the face,although it can and does get a bit heavier but still light.

to me if you have to stop in the middle of chisao to analize what has just happened its futile and hopless at best ...once the movement has ended its gone past tense and you move on to the next movement with no break inbetween and keep the flow going.

has anyone else noticed this kind of thing amongst fellow students ? i would imagine that it be quite common.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Yeah, there are a couple of students in Kamon who have a nasty habit of stopping mid roll and start chatting about life and stuff.

I hate that. I come to training to train!!

There are times when people are impressed by a certain move and ask how its done and I don't have a problem with that. Breaking down a move to see how someone got caught out can be useful (so that they know what to work on), but generally, as you have said Skinters, the move has passed and its too late to go back. Its almost like asking a magician to repeat his trick!!