Textbooks as Shields in Classrooms

[ArmorOfGod]

http://www.koco.com/news/10105982/detail.html

What is everyone's take on the idea?

AoG

 

[Andrew Green]

I think they'd be better of getting taught to run away then hold a text book up in defense...

I also think the text books would not stay under the desks for long.

And I wonder what things have come to that children need to be taught "What to do in case someone comes into the school and starts shooting at you"

And finally I am left wondering why "hold this book up as a shield" is a more "reasonable" thing to do then try to get basic gun control in place.

Seems like a rather odd case of treating the symptoms and ignoring the cause.

 

[MJS]

Its nice that someone is taking the time to research this, but personally, I'm not going to rely on a book to stop a bullet.

I think they'd be better of getting taught to run away then hold a text book up in defense...

I also think the text books would not stay under the desks for long.

And I wonder what things have come to that children need to be taught "What to do in case someone comes into the school and starts shooting at you"

And finally I am left wondering why "hold this book up as a shield" is a more "reasonable" thing to do then try to get basic gun control in place.

Seems like a rather odd case of treating the symptoms and ignoring the cause.

Good points Andrew. I'd like to see the answers to these issues as well.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

There has been a recent rash of knee-jerk, idiotic responses from adults who are paranoid due to the recent school shootings. This is one of them.

We discuss the recently most prevelantly reported on case here, and I state my opinions pretty clearly (starts on this page): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=641103#post641103

It seems like an epidemic of knee-jerk reactions; I hope it doesn't go further. This reminds of me of the mass exodus to the hardware store to stock up on "duct tape" for the next terror threat a few years ago; except this knee jerk reaction happends to be more harmful to kids.

Oh...and Andrew, the reason you are left wondering why "hold this book up as a shield" is a more "reasonable" thing to do then try to get basic gun control in place is simple: both solutions are equally valid in that they don't work.

 

[Drac]

I think they'd be better of getting taught to run away then hold a text book up in defense...

I also think the text books would not stay under the desks for long.

And I wonder what things have come to that children need to be taught "What to do in case someone comes into the school and starts shooting at you"

And finally I am left wondering why "hold this book up as a shield" is a more "reasonable" thing to do then try to get basic gun control in place.

Seems like a rather odd case of treating the symptoms and ignoring the cause.

Damn good point...Awaiting answers...

 

[terryl965]

Run and run fast what is a text book going to do, absolutely nothing.Andrew question are great ones

 

[bydand]

I think the whole idea is (simply put) Stupid. And yes that is stupid with a capital "S". Although this brought back something I had read many years ago, I will try to find the source so I am not just spewing secondhand opinion here. There was a study done that found you may gain an additions few seconds by blocking a shooters point of aim with just about anything, a hand, book, even a piece of paper. It seems that the majority of people need to have their intended point of impact in view at short ranges and if you can disrupt that, the tendancy is to try to shoot around (instead of through) whatever is blocking that view. I'll try to find the article concerning that study today, I haven't thought of it in a long time. In that aspect a book might just buy enough time to get out and RUN.

 

[Drac]

I haven't thought of it in a long time. In that aspect a book might just buy enough time to get out and RUN.

If thrown hard enough at the attacker...

 

[Don Roley]

I have to tell you that the stupidity will continue.

Here is some background. I have been teaching in Japan for many years. Years ago, some complete nutcase walked into an elementary school with a knife and started killing kids. He got quite a few. It was terrible. The whole nation was aghast at this..... I don't know the words.

So the politicians had to do something. They decided that schools would now require people coming into the schools to sign in at the entrance and wear tags indentifiying them as visitors.

You think I am kidding?

But the politicians got to say they were doing something. Drinking with my teacher friends, we all said the new proposals would not make a bit of difference.

Later, some scumbag decided to kill some more kids and did in the same manner. Of course, the new provisions did not help. This guy was scum, real scum. He tried to portray himself as being temporarily insane. But his ex-girlfriend came forward to say that he threatened that is he left him he would do something really terrible and she would know for all eternity that she was the cause. Last I heard, he was on death row. I hope he rots in hell.

So now, as part of the politicians drive to show people that they are doing something about the problem, we now have satsumata. These modern versions are basically two pronged forks with a long handle. I own a real Satsumata from the Edo period and these are a joke. You can't do damage by hitting someone with them because they are lightweight aluminum and unlike the original versions, there are no spikes to prevent someone from just grabbing and ripping off the satsumata holding them.

They are a joke. But now that the political hacks have covered their butts, no one is dealing with any of the problems. I do not know if they can. But I know that there will be another mass killing of kids. And as I am a parent with a kid in the system, that scares me.

These type of things will not work as has been pointed out. But if they are implemented, those in power can say to the masses that they have done something to deal with the problem.... until the next massacre.

 

[Grenadier]

I think they'd be better of getting taught to run away then hold a text book up in defense...

Probably the best advice anyone can give.

A textbook will not stop a reasonably powered centerfire handgun bullet. Anything in .380 ACP or more powerful, will probably go through it and still have enough lethal force behind it.

No classroom textbook will stop a centerfire rifle bullet.

Furthermore, text books cover such a small area, that any reasonably proficient gun man can aim around it.


Don Roley also hit the issue on the nose. This whole thing does nothing to treat the problem.

 

[charyuop]

And finally I am left wondering why "hold this book up as a shield" is a more "reasonable" thing to do then try to get basic gun control in place.

We are talking in most of the cases of young kids. A stupid idea is telling kids how to stop a bullet with a book, but I think it is a stupid idea also teaching them how to try to gain control of a gun (if what I understood from your words is right).
Kids are day dreamers and full of fantasies. teach them how to gain control of a armed man would just make them feel more powerfull...in my opinion would make of them just a better target.
Better teaching run, not in a streight line and as low as you can!

In my country I have never heard of anything like this happening (Italy), thus I don't really know if they have thought about counter measures for crazy shooters. But in my opinion the only solution would be putting a armed guard in every school at the entrance, in a little room with bullet proof glasses, because he would be the first target of course.

 

[Andrew Green]

Nope, I mean make it a lot harder for people to get there hands on guns. Things like this might still happen and do in countries with gun control, China & Japan for example have had similar events carried out with knives.

Kids assaulting a intruder wasd brought up in another thread, I think it is a equally stupid idea.

 

[Bigshadow]

There has been a recent rash of knee-jerk, idiotic responses from adults who are paranoid due to the recent school shootings. This is one of them.

We discuss the recently most prevelantly reported on case here, and I state my opinions pretty clearly (starts on this page): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=641103#post641103

It seems like an epidemic of knee-jerk reactions; I hope it doesn't go further. This reminds of me of the mass exodus to the hardware store to stock up on "duct tape" for the next terror threat a few years ago; except this knee jerk reaction happends to be more harmful to kids.

Oh...and Andrew, the reason you are left wondering why "hold this book up as a shield" is a more "reasonable" thing to do then try to get basic gun control in place is simple: both solutions are equally valid in that they don't work.

Damn... I couldn't rep you for this, so I figured I would post! I completely agree! I couldn't have said it better myself. :high5:

 

[Andrew Green]

I just had a thought. We need to bring back dodgeball. There is a game that teaches you to run in zig zags, avoid getting hit, stay out of lines of fire, etc. Instead of banning tag, we need to bring back dodgeball, which IMO is 100x more realistic then "Here kids, hold up these old text books"

Yup, that's my plan. I'll run for office based on it. Wait... dodgeball is bad... needs a renaming... maybe if I called it "Projectile avoidance training" rather then dodgeball... yeah, that will work.

*Andrew for Premier of Manitoba!*

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Textbooks as shields? That is just ridiculous! The kids if anything need to be taught how to get out of the school and away from the shooter.

 

[Drac]

*Andrew for Premier of Manitoba!*

Ya got my vote...

 

[Kacey]

This falls on the high end of the ridiculous scale, for the many reasons already stated.

The only two options to teach kids - especially younger kids - are: run if you can, duck and cover if you can't run. I don't consider a textbook "cover" - desks, file cabinets, bookcases... depends on the caliber - but not a textbook.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

This falls on the high end of the ridiculous scale, for the many reasons already stated.

The only two options to teach kids - especially younger kids - are: run if you can, duck and cover if you can't run. I don't consider a textbook "cover" - desks, file cabinets, bookcases... depends on the caliber - but not a textbook.

And on that concept, click here:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/13/defending.the.classroom.ap/index.html

I can't remember if I saw that link here or at fark.com , but it talks about teaching kids how to "defend the classroom."

AoG

 

[terryl965]

And on that concept, click here:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/13/defending.the.classroom.ap/index.html

I can't remember if I saw that link here or at fark.com , but it talks about teaching kids how to "defend the classroom."

AoG

Ok On that note they are only 20 miles from me and this is the first I have heard of this, telling kids to fight back against armed assaluants is stupid, they should be running or hiding like Kacy already said, sure how do they tell 8 and 9 years olds to fight back now some of you will get killed but the rest of you will survive if my childern was there in that distraict i would be in an up roar over such training. Just my humble opinion about this.

 

[Andrew Green]

So does anyone else see the conflicting message of telling them they aren't allowed to play dodgeball, everything they do has to be supervised, there is that other thread about tag being banned, and with all this "safety" in that they are not allowed to do anything even remotely dangerous, they are still to be taught how to defend against a armed intruder...?