Texas State and Lajust

[terryl965]

Well this past weekend was the Texas State tournament with the Lajust scoring system all I can say is WOW. This would not be a good WOW either, the system was having trouble talented people would kick the living crap out of somebody and no points was going up, you saw more and more matches the coaches was telling there student to go for the head, it became head hunter central all night long. I even heard on coach tell his player to keep his gaurd up because the sytem is not scoring body shots. I am glad they are using them but also I would like to see more and more punches being scored. I hope that they can make some changes before National or atleast have some that really work.​

 

[mango.man]

There is no doubt that the use of this system is going to require people to change the way that they play the game. Those that are quickest to learn the adjustments needed under this system are going to have an advantage until the others catch up. And when that happens, they will likely change the system again.

We get to use the gear again next next weekend at the California State Qual. We will see if the adjustments to our game that our team has made since the U.S. Open pays off or not.

Did Zack at least qualify?

 

[terryl965]

No he referee this event he will go to the qualifier here in Dallas later this year. I saw kicks that was dead on not score, you need to make that upward swing with the kick for a score which goes away from chambering the kick like you are toght from day one. Youa re right about people making the adjustment will ahve the advantage over all others. Zachary gets to play with it enough to make the right adjustment during his matches. I hope California goes better.

 

[Gorilla]

We are making lots of adjustments. It is a completely different sport. We have been using LAJUST at events long enough that the shock has worn off. Looking forward to Cal State lots of strong competition. My daughters div both JR and SR are very tough. Lots of world class fighters. The 12/13 year olds look to be very strong also.

 

[ATC]

Welcome to the world of LaJust Terry. Believe it or not the back kick is not one of the best kicks to have in your bag with the LaJust system being used. They score quite easy (if you are on target) and they are worth 2 points. My daughter loves back kick and never got scored for them before LaJust. Now she scores 2 to 3 times a match with just back kick alone.

Yes it is going to take adjustments and one of those is setting up the head now. It is better to bait and take 1 to get 3. This is what we practice a lot now. Give up 1 and take 3. The risk reward is worth it.

See you guys in Carson.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So in other words, Taekwondo is essentially now in the same territory that Sport fencing entered about twenty to thirty years ago. Fencers adapting their fencing to deal with scoring systems removed them further from what fencing was about. Likewise, I only see this as doing the same with TKD.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

So in other words, Taekwondo is essentially now in the same territory that Sport fencing entered about twenty to thirty years ago. Fencers adapting their fencing to deal with scoring systems removed them further from what fencing was about. Likewise, I only see this as doing the same with TKD.

Daniel

Sad but true!

 

[mango.man]

It is somewhat like a poomse debate or the recent playing to win vs playing to learn threads that we have had here as well as on other forums.

Back in the day when Samantha used to compete in poomse at the events we attended, I always told her to watch what the others before her did and keep track of how they were scored. Then adjust your poomse so that you could score the highest score possible, even if it means doing things completely different than what you know to be right.

But she has always been a person that plays to win. You take what you know and you tweak it to give you an advantage, while playing within the confines of what ever rules apply in the given competitive circumstance that you are face with.

 

[FearlessFreep]

So in other words, Taekwondo is essentially now in the same territory that Sport fencing entered about twenty to thirty years ago. Fencers adapting their fencing to deal with scoring systems removed them further from what fencing was about. Likewise, I only see this as doing the same with TKD.

Daniel

This has *always* been the case. It happens whenever you add competition to a human activity and the more the competition is *worth*, the more it happens. I mean the even have Kayak competitions now with simulated Kayaks in tubs of water that simulate rapids; how long before that has little to do with actually getting out in a river

The way I phrase it is:

Rules determine Strategy
Strategies determine Tactics
Tactics determine Techniques
Techniques determine Training

That's *it*. And it applies to everything from Baseball and Soccer and Football to Tae Kwon Do, MMA, and Boxing.

So every time you change the rules, or even how the rules are applied, it filters down to your day to day training, and the more serious you are about the competition, the more those rules dictate your life.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sad but true!

I suppose that 'sad' is a relative term. If it makes the matches more fair and diminishes judging shenanigans, then you have a positive. If it makes hand techniques viable again, then I would actually consider it to be making sport TKD less removed from the art.

If it is removed further from the art but the sport is more fun, more fair, and more exciting to watch as a result, again, that is a positive of sorts, but as I stated in another thread, it should get a different name (Taekwon-Korean-word-for-sport would work for me). But that is an entirely different discussion.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

I suppose that 'sad' is a relative term. If it makes the matches more fair and diminishes judging shenanigans, then you have a positive. If it makes hand techniques viable again, then I would actually consider it to be making sport TKD less removed from the art.

If it is removed further from the art but the sport is more fun, more fair, and more exciting to watch as a result, again, that is a positive of sorts, but as I stated in another thread, it should get a different name (Taekwon-Korean-word-for-sport would work for me). But that is an entirely different discussion.

Daniel

The LAJUST system has made the referees more influential. They score the head kicks and the punches. The head kicks at 3 points makes a big difference. It is not more fun, more fair or more exciting to watch. It takes away the power aspect because you can't feel the kicks through the Hogu. No backside scoring which limits the counter game. It helps some and hinders others. My son loves it because he is quick and a very good defender to the body and he goes to the head very well. Perfect for him. My daughter has more of a power game(kicks very hard) and goes to the backside well. She is not a great head kicker. She has had to make drastic adjustments to her game. In the end it will make her better because she has to become more strategic.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The LAJUST system has made the referees more influential. They score the head kicks and the punches. The head kicks at 3 points makes a big difference. It is not more fun, more fair or more exciting to watch. It takes away the power aspect because you can't feel the kicks through the Hogu.

Too bad. The original reason for electric scoring in fencing was to make it more fair. Between the electrics and the timings, which differ from foil to sabre to epee, there is a degree of gamesmanship that one does not see in dry fencing. But the primary benefit of electrics is that it tends to be more fair. If that one benefit has not resulted in going electric in TKD, then it seems a waste of time and over-engineering of the scoring.

Keep in mind that the reason fencing needed it is because the tip of the weapons are fast enough that the ref cannot always see the touch. In fact, the tip of a fencing weapon is the fastest moving object in sports after the bullet fired from a riffle. The same cannot be said of kicks and punches, TKD or otherwise.

If the system does nothing more than change the dynamic a little, then there seems to be little point.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Daniel the reason the electronic hogu's was getting so much hype was the fact to make the playing field fair. Judges was always showing favotism to alot of athletes and it took a big knockout or alot of money to get these people noticed. Their still is the judges having favorites but atleast it makes it a little better for those that don't have alot of cash to attend all these so called elite camps.

Well lets open a bag of worms here about these so called elite camps that cost five hundred dollars for as weekend and they really do not get alot for that, well atleast not that I have seen. Everything they teach is the same thing any good Olympic person is teaching.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel the reason the electronic hogu's was getting so much hype was the fact to make the playing field fair. Judges was always showing favotism to alot of athletes and it took a big knockout or alot of money to get these people noticed. Their still is the judges having favorites but atleast it makes it a little better for those that don't have alot of cash to attend all these so called elite camps.

That would seem logical. But was the end result increased fairness? Gorilla's post seems to indicate otherwise, though perhaps I am reading it wrong.

Well lets open a bag of worms here about these so called elite camps that cost five hundred dollars for as weekend and they really do not get alot for that, well atleast not that I have seen. Everything they teach is the same thing any good Olympic person is teaching.

Not an issue for me. Neither I nor my kids have any interest in sport TKD or the olympic movement. The camps sound overpriced though.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

That would seem logical. But was the end result increased fairness? Gorilla's post seems to indicate otherwise, though perhaps I am reading it wrong.

No daniel the end result did not live up to the hype, the cost of the system is so much, every school cannot offord them so they will have a dis-advantage in the ring. The next problem is with angle, you see the roundhouse is a chamber kick a cross the body kick and the system mainly only counts those kick coming in from the floor to the cieling angle which is really scrapping your opponet rather then putting the kick though the body. As far as punches it seems they are scoring more often but I believe this is becaus ethe refs. really want to score so they are.

Not an issue for me. Neither I nor my kids have any interest in sport TKD or the olympic movement. The camps sound overpriced though.

I understand your point above for me it is a dead issue but I must stay with my son having hopes and dreams for the Olympics one day. The camps are overprice simply because as of now you need one of those camps to really get on the radar so it is about money as always. I am lucky since I know everrybody Zachary gets some very good training from people I do not wish to mention here on the forum.

 

[Gorilla]

Daniel the reason the electronic hogu's was getting so much hype was the fact to make the playing field fair. Judges was always showing favotism to alot of athletes and it took a big knockout or alot of money to get these people noticed. Their still is the judges having favorites but atleast it makes it a little better for those that don't have alot of cash to attend all these so called elite camps.

Well lets open a bag of worms here about these so called elite camps that cost five hundred dollars for as weekend and they really do not get alot for that, well atleast not that I have seen. Everything they teach is the same thing any good Olympic person is teaching.

Until they score the head kicks electronically bias is still a part of the game. The only real difference is that the body shots are scored equally. There is less bias but bias still exists.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That would seem logical. But was the end result increased fairness? Gorilla's post seems to indicate otherwise, though perhaps I am reading it wrong.

No daniel the end result did not live up to the hype, the cost of the system is so much, every school cannot offord them so they will have a dis-advantage in the ring. The next problem is with angle, you see the roundhouse is a chamber kick a cross the body kick and the system mainly only counts those kick coming in from the floor to the cieling angle which is really scrapping your opponet rather then putting the kick though the body. As far as punches it seems they are scoring more often but I believe this is becaus ethe refs. really want to score so they are.

Not an issue for me. Neither I nor my kids have any interest in sport TKD or the olympic movement. The camps sound overpriced though.

I understand your point above for me it is a dead issue but I must stay with my son having hopes and dreams for the Olympics one day. The camps are overprice simply because as of now you need one of those camps to really get on the radar so it is about money as always. I am lucky since I know everybody Zachary gets some very good training from people I do not wish to mention here on the forum.

Even though Sport TKD is not my cup of Kenya AA, I wish Zachary the best and do still try to keep up somewhat with what is happening in the sport scene (hence my posting on the subject). Now, if he actually makes it to the olympics (certainly a good possibility), I will definitely tune in to watch and cheer him on.

Daniel

 

[FearlessFreep]

The next problem is with angle, you see the roundhouse is a chamber kick a cross the body kick and the system mainly only counts those kick coming in from the floor to the cieling angle which is really scrapping your opponet rather then putting the kick though the body

Coincidence but we were talking about that yesterday. We make a distinction between the 'roundhouse' kick which is as you describe and which I think we all learn very early and the 'round kick' which is the second way you describe, coming up at about a 45 degree angle. They are mechanically a bit different, at least the way we approach them as two separate kicks. The 'round kick' is really what sport Tae Kwon Do uses as a matter of course because of the scoring rules. There are mechanical and tactical advantages and disadvantages to each kick.

Amusing to me that the scoring system is favored toward the round kick and away from the true roundhouse kick

 

[terryl965]

Amusing to me that the scoring system is favored toward the round kick and away from the true roundhouse kick

FF it is kinda of amusing since it was the Korean that really help define the true Roundhouse kick, it is the basic to all kicking in the system to chamber to help you have more power behind your kicks.

 

[ATC]

Coincidence but we were talking about that yesterday. We make a distinction between the 'roundhouse' kick which is as you describe and which I think we all learn very early and the 'round kick' which is the second way you describe, coming up at about a 45 degree angle. They are mechanically a bit different, at least the way we approach them as two separate kicks. The 'round kick' is really what sport Tae Kwon Do uses as a matter of course because of the scoring rules. There are mechanical and tactical advantages and disadvantages to each kick.

Amusing to me that the scoring system is favored toward the round kick and away from the true roundhouse kick

Even back in the 70's I learned both kicks. One was called a round house or round kick, the other was called just that, a 45 degree kick. I just think that the 45 degree kick is used more in today’s sport than was needed in the past, but they were both there from the beginning. We were taught that the 45 degree kick was a faster kick with less power but still effective. Just like the round kick was taught two ways, one with the instep and the other with the ball of foot or toes pulled back. We use to break boards with the ball of foot, but today just about everything is done with the instep, even board breaking.