Taking the back from the clinch

[trevorama]

So you're on the street and you've just maneuvered behind your opponent. Now what? If you don't want to take him to the ground (for risk of injury or risk of being attacked by one of his buddies), what are the best offensive moves (i.e. moves that you can use where you take advantage of the position -- typically arms around body below opponent's arms)?

In practice, this concept is trickier than it may sound. What's the answer?

 

[redfang]

There are great targets to strike when behind an opponent. From top to bottom, off the top of my head, ear, side of head, side of neck, base of neck (brachial plexus origin?) kidneys, kick to back of knee. Also you can sweep from here, choke, or perform a number of other takedowns that don't necessitate you going to the ground with the subject.

 

[trevorama]

There are great targets to strike when behind an opponent. From top to bottom, off the top of my head, ear, side of head, side of neck, base of neck (brachial plexus origin?) kidneys, kick to back of knee.

Ah yes, the ear and side of head and neck are great targets from the back! And they haven't been mentioned yet in this other similar thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38046

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

So you're on the street and you've just maneuvered behind your opponent. Now what? If you don't want to take him to the ground (for risk of injury or risk of being attacked by one of his buddies), what are the best offensive moves (i.e. moves that you can use where you take advantage of the position -- typically arms around body below opponent's arms)?

In practice, this concept is trickier than it may sound. What's the answer?

#1 since a takedown is out of the question here ALWAYS (at least almost always) kick them in the back of the knee and anchor their weight towards that knee to drop them but not you. Now they'll have to rise before turning and fighting.

#2 Now that they are temporarily ALOT less mobile than you. pick one of the previously mentioned targets and have at it. Preferably where the skull meets the spine with a hard elbow or hammer fist. Also with them kneeling and you standing you can access their face with many open handed strikes, rips and tears as well as wrench their neck with alot of leverage (enough leverage to easily go to lethality if necessary). You can also pull their head back and down to put pressure on their spine (keeps them down on the ground) while exposing their throat.

 

[FuriousGeorge]

This is an interesting question, my first reaction is why go to the back if you want to avoid the ground...assuming the guy has some idea what he's doing, thats not going to be the easiest position to take and lends itself more to grappling than striking IMO. Sure there are good targets, but holding the back position and striking at the same time while standing seems tough. If I found myself there I'de go for a rear naked or maybe see if I could choke the guy out with his coat or something. If he defended that well, I might try to pick the guy up and slam him.

 

[FearlessFreep]

If you get his back you have a head start running the other way

 

[trevorama]

This is an interesting question, my first reaction is why go to the back if you want to avoid the ground...assuming the guy has some idea what he's doing, thats not going to be the easiest position to take and lends itself more to grappling than striking IMO. Sure there are good targets, but holding the back position and striking at the same time while standing seems tough. If I found myself there I'de go for a rear naked or maybe see if I could choke the guy out with his coat or something. If he defended that well, I might try to pick the guy up and slam him.

Finally someone understands the conundrum! While the back seems advantageous, the second you release your grip on the person to strike, they can maneuver away from you. Even kicks to the back of the knee, aren't guaranteed to be effective if you have a tight grip around your opponent -- the leverage isn't necessarily going to be there. And striking to the head, against someone that is leaning forward and bracing themselves against a suplex is futile.

I want moves that will work on anyone -- not just an unskilled opponent that is happy to stand erect, facing away from you, while you hit him from behind. After spending several hours, conducting a variety of tests with various sparring partners, here are the best moves I could find against a trained, ucooperative opponent from the back... which still enable you to stay off the ground.

1. Slide both arms downward and pull both knees towards you, while simultanously pushing upward with your chest against your opponent, pusing him to the ground.

2. Drop down and reach your right arm in front of your opponent down between his legs. Reach your left hand from behind through his legs and grab your own hand. Lift your opponent up and twist to the right while pushing your shoulders forward against him, throwing him down.

3. Lift your opponent, if you can, like you're going to suplex them, but instead drop them on their side.

4. If you have one arm in an overhook (perhaps after an arm drag from the clinch) stay behind and to the side of your opponent. Grab his other arm with your free hand. This position enables you to control your opponent, while freeing up space for those glorious knees.

Again, all of these moves enable you to either throw your opponent to the ground, while remaining standing or put you in an extremely favorable position to set up some devastating standard attacks.

I encourage you to try this drill out. It's not as easy as you may think to finish someone off with [insert deadly move here], if the person is uncooperative.

If you come up with some better moves, let me know. The back can be a safe place to be and an avenue to winning the fight.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Why not a high crotch take down and dump him on his head? I'm assuming here this isn't a fight for pride so much as a self-defense situation that would warrant splitting a guy's head open and/or breaking his neck.


Regards,


Steve

 

[trevorama]

Why not a high crotch take down and dump him on his head? I'm assuming here this isn't a fight for pride so much as a self-defense situation that would warrant splitting a guy's head open and/or breaking his neck.

Hey Steve, you assume correctly. Thanks for the suggestion. For some reason, I can't remember trying this one out. Maybe the angle of the opponent's upper body (leaning forward) as well as the tendency of the opponent to lower their base, made this one harder to get. It's a great move though, so I'l have to investigate and get back to you.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Finally someone understands the conundrum! While the back seems advantageous, the second you release your grip on the person to strike, they can maneuver away from you. Even kicks to the back of the knee, aren't guaranteed to be effective if you have a tight grip around your opponent -- the leverage isn't necessarily going to be there. And striking to the head, against someone that is leaning forward and bracing themselves against a suplex is futile.......

This is not a dig on you so please don't take offense. But judging from the outlined part you must not know how to execute a "stomp kick" or "stop Kick" or "reverse sweep" or "reverse side kick" depending on where you learn it. You also must not be too familiar with the concept of "weight loading". Not only is the leverage there to kick the back of his knee out but it's immense and does not require you to release your grip at all. In fact the grip adds to the leverage and maintains a secure position in case the kick fails so you can just kick him again Also you're looking for moves GUARANTEED to work on anyone. There are no guaranteed moves ever....

The kick to the back of knee I mentioned earlier is taught in 1) Kenpo, 2) Ju Jitsu (traditional and BJJ), 3) Krav Maga, 4) Kung Fu, 5) Several Combatives and CQC courses, 6) Several Self Defense Programs, 7) Several "traditional" forms of karate, 8)etc. as a high percentage (not guaranteed but as close to guaranteed as you'll get) move for the position you described.

I'd look a little further into it before dismissing it, especially in the case of leverage issues. There's almost too much leverage if there is such a thing...I wish I had a digital camcorder to show you or in person...text just doesn't work well enough at times.

 

[MattJ]

Excellent post, James. I agree completely. If the opponent's weight is set, the kick should take him down. If you blow his leg out of position with the kick, just put your weight onto his shoulders. He should go down. If he still resists, start pulling him back - hard - to take both his feet out from under him.

 

[DavidCC]

"So many joints, so little time"

that's, like, a hapkido reference, right??? :shrug: LOL

 

[trevorama]

This is not a dig on you so please don't take offense. But judging from the outlined part you must not know how to execute a "stomp kick" or "stop Kick" or "reverse sweep" or "reverse side kick" depending on where you learn it. You also must not be too familiar with the concept of "weight loading". Not only is the leverage there to kick the back of his knee out but it's immense and does not require you to release your grip at all. In fact the grip adds to the leverage and maintains a secure position in case the kick fails so you can just kick him again Also you're looking for moves GUARANTEED to work on anyone. There are no guaranteed moves ever....

James,

First, thanks for the thorough post. I aplogize for the late response. My mailer must have dumped the notification into the junk bin or something. I hate it when you take the time to address something and all you hear is wind.

Okay, now to responsd to your comments. Your opening kinda reminded me of Simon Cowell, of American Idol fame, where he starts off by saying something innocuous like, "Don't take this personally..." and then proceeds to explain why the singer sucks with every fiber of their being. It gave me a good laugh.

The kick to the back of knee I mentioned earlier is taught in 1) Kenpo, 2) Ju Jitsu (traditional and BJJ), 3) Krav Maga, 4) Kung Fu, 5) Several Combatives and CQC courses, 6) Several Self Defense Programs, 7) Several "traditional" forms of karate, 8)etc. as a high percentage (not guaranteed but as close to guaranteed as you'll get) move for the position you described.

For the record I'm very familiar with the stomp kick/instep kick/reverse side kick (and about a thousand other names). It's one of my favourite and most devastating kicks actually. The problem is that it's not very effective from the position I mentioned. Yes, if you've just come around to your opponent's back in an upright position and have a good hold on the upper part of their body (i.e. head, shoulders, even arms) the instep kick is extremely effective (especially when combined with a nose crush, nose turn, choke, fish hook, etc.) -- which is why it's taught in so many different styles (you left out Filipino martial arts... and Shaq Fu) .

I think what we have here is a misunderstanding and perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough. I was talking about a very specific position from an opponent's back, where your arms are wrapped tight around their waste (like you're about to suplex them) and your head is against their back (so they can't flail about and hit you with a lucky shot). From this position the instep kick to the leg isn't very effective. I didn't say I was looking for a move that was guaranteed to work -- I was looking for a move that was guaranteed to be *effective*. And the instep kick, just isn't -- from this position only! I encourage you to try it out against a skilled MMA fighter. It's actualy kinda shocking how inneffective it is, which is why you *never* see this move in any MMA competitions from this position (at least I've never seen it).

I'd look a little further into it before dismissing it, especially in the case of leverage issues. There's almost too much leverage if there is such a thing...I wish I had a digital camcorder to show you or in person...text just doesn't work well enough at times.

Believe me, I've spent hours and hours going over various scenarios against skilled opponents and unskilled ones. I'm going to throw it right back at you -- if you don't train at an MMA gym, find an actual MMA fighter and ask them to try to defend themselves from the position I described. You will find it extremely difficult to knock them off their base once they're anchored (unless you try one of the other moves I prescribed or you're willing to go to the ground with them). It's any eye-opening experience.

Happy stomping!