Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[troubleenuf]

Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience. We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests. We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them. When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates. If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy. I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee. I think the last time it was $35.
Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court. It is inexpensive to do this. In ALL cases they have come out the winner. Its very simple. The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test. The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is? They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back. In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them) He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out. I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35. Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.

 

[hungryninja]

I have also heard of people holding the certificates until the student has attended at least 6 months of classes after the test. Is this common?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.

Why would this gentleman, or anybody, agree to test someone if they didn't think they were already "loyal," or anything else that they consider being essential to being a black belt? And if they weren't and insisted on testing anyway, why were they passed in the first place?

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

I would never sue my instructor for anything. Certainly not for a certificate.

 

[dortiz]

I actually need help getting my sons certificate. His test was done and paid. His School then wants you to attend a ceremony dinner which we paid the tickets for but then the date was set as the same time as a planned vacation. The teacher of course said we need to pay for a second ceremony next time around and be there to recieve the Cert. Now he cant get his certificate and my wife wont pay for another dinner on principle. At this point we are not speaking with his teacher as my wife is done.
On the new Kukkiwon site I dont see where I can order replacements. Any idea on how to order it.

 

[d1jinx]

I actually need help getting my sons certificate. His test was done and paid. His School then wants you to attend a ceremony dinner which we paid the tickets for but then the date was set as the same time as a planned vacation. The teacher of course said we need to pay for a second ceremony next time around and be there to recieve the Cert. Now he cant get his certificate and my wife wont pay for another dinner on principle. At this point we are not speaking with his teacher as my wife is done.
On the new Kukkiwon site I dont see where I can order replacements. Any idea on how to order it.

you know, that is quite stupid on the part of the instructor. So he would rather loose a BB student over a "DINNER"????

I get the significance of the dinner, but life doesnt revolve around TKD and expectations should not either.

Are you sure your sons shows in the system? If so, you can easily get a replacement. Try contacting them yourself through email, if that dont work, there are a few here who can get it, just PM them instead of open forumn for discretion....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why would this gentleman, or anybody, agree to test someone if they didn't think they were already "loyal," or anything else that they consider being essential to being a black belt? And if they weren't and insisted on testing anyway, why were they passed in the first place?

Pax,

Chris

Probably to get the $550.00.

Hanging onto the cert for several months, be it under the guise that the Kukkiwon was busy (heard that one before) or for proof of loyalty usually means that many months worth of tuition, plus any other fees for say, weapon form testing, or whatever. They don't want to quit because they at least would like to get the certificate that they tested for.

Multiply that by fifty, and you have a cozy, but dishonest, way of keeping people from quitting right after black belt.

All comes down to a lack of integrity.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.

I would never sue my instructor for anything. Certainly not for a certificate.

I suspect that the people who choose to sue do not start off worrying about the getting what they paid for element. I suspect that the certificate means a great deal to them.

It is not until someone that they have trusted turns out to be less than honest that they get upset. When the instructor in question refuses to make things right, over a period of time, all that is left of the once valued student/teacher relationship is the relationship between a dishonest businessman and a dissatisfied customer.

If it a minor student is involved, it may not be the student, but the parents, who have footed the bill, who are suing the instructor.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I suspect that the people who choose to sue do not start off worrying about the getting what they paid for element. I suspect that the certificate means a great deal to them. It is not until someone that they have trusted turns out to be less than honest that they get upset. When the instructor in question refuses to make things right, over a period of time, all that is left of the once valued student/teacher relationship is the relationship between a dishonest businessman and a dissatisfied customer.

I think that you can see that sort of thing coming. I personally am very particular about who I learn from, to the point where I chose not to learn from certain instructors even though they had excellent skill, because of what my gut told me. I suppose you can blame the particular instructor, but at the same time, I would think that the student has to take at least some responsibility, for joining in the first place.

 

[dortiz]

NameCurrent
Poom/DanPoom/Dan
No.Date of
IssuanceXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX .... 44162010-04-05

I deleted the pertinent stuff but yup its there. Luckily the ceremony is 6 months after the test and they did register him. They do that so you re sign for another year.That way you have to re register and buy the ceremony tickets. Again that was fine. Its a falling out over not making the dinner and be asked to pay for new tickets. I am stuck between my wife and the teacher. I lose both ways. My teacher is elsewhere and I would ask him but I cant begin to explain that my son went to this school because itwas closer and my wife would not drive. Stupid drama.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

All comes down to a lack of integrity.

Daniel

A lack of real integrity and ethics on the part of the instructor. I would not have anything to do with someone like that!

 

[troubleenuf]

My question exactly? It was all a bunch of BS... and the fact that he was more or less
"proud" of the stack of certificates he presented to the judge of those he was "holding" at the time? I try to get them to the students as soon as I can. I dont want them sitting on my shelf any longer than they need to be.

Why would this gentleman, or anybody, agree to test someone if they didn't think they were already "loyal," or anything else that they consider being essential to being a black belt? And if they weren't and insisted on testing anyway, why were they passed in the first place?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that you can see that sort of thing coming. I personally am very particular about who I learn from, to the point where I chose not to learn from certain instructors even though they had excellent skill, because of what my gut told me. I suppose you can blame the particular instructor, but at the same time, I would think that the student has to take at least some responsibility, for joining in the first place.

That is a toughie. I do agree that a student has an obligation to do research into the place that they are going to train, but, the level of specific research and the information that you and I can pick up right off the bat is much more informative than what a new student can. That difference becomes even greater when it is a parent shopping for the student and not the student themselves.

Daniel

 

[shima]

NameCurrent
Poom/DanPoom/Dan
No.Date of
IssuanceXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX .... 44162010-04-05

I deleted the pertinent stuff but yup its there. Luckily the ceremony is 6 months after the test and they did register him. They do that so you re sign for another year.That way you have to re register and buy the ceremony tickets. Again that was fine. Its a falling out over not making the dinner and be asked to pay for new tickets. I am stuck between my wife and the teacher. I lose both ways. My teacher is elsewhere and I would ask him but I cant begin to explain that my son went to this school because itwas closer and my wife would not drive. Stupid drama.

The insane part is that you already paid for the first dinner and then couldn't make it due to your family vacation. I think the instructor should have let you come to the next dinner and not charged you.

But then again people do crazy things when they're trying to rip you off for more money.

 

[troubleenuf]

Unfortunately not everyone is gifted with your obvious psychic ability. If there is a substantiated school that has been in business for a period of time most people who are new to martial arts have no clue as to what questions to ask or what to look for when they walk in the door. For that matter the school could have opened yesterday and 99% of the new people walking in the door still would not know what questions to ask and what to look for. In 31 years I have had all of 3 people ask about my certification that actually knew what it meant and that was because they had previous experience. Many new people dont know if a first degree outranks a 7th degree or visa versa. So how can you say them getting screwed by an unscrupulous instructor is partly their fault. Thats like saying you knew there was a chance the plane was going to crash so it was your fault you took the flight.

I think that you can see that sort of thing coming. I personally am very particular about who I learn from, to the point where I chose not to learn from certain instructors even though they had excellent skill, because of what my gut told me. I suppose you can blame the particular instructor, but at the same time, I would think that the student has to take at least some responsibility, for joining in the first place.

 

[Master Dan]

In some cases there is a marketing or incentive plan that has a black belt club in the Dojang were students prepay for thier KKW bb in advance including thier nice embroider Black Belt which hangs on a display until the day they are ready to test and recieve thier KKW cert which should be ordered in time to recieve upon testing?

This is all fine to inspire students to work hard towards certification however there are many abuses where masters and I would put it to you the larger percentage% are non American in origin have pocketed the money and never paid KKW a dime and issue private certs or nothing at all. I am all in favor of never passing or testing anyone who does not meet loyalty and many other standards for rank just refuse to test them go to somone else but do not take thier money. Saying you would never sue is rediculous if you have paid for something you should recieve it!! but not being allowed to test is a right of the instructor. The fleecing of America is at heart of what is wrong with commercial MA and the Olympics in general. We have been treated as a commidity to be exploited not by all but in general go to any of the seminars or read the literature promoted on how to run a school it turns my stomach.

Eat the Rich feed the poor

 

[igillman]

I am sure that there are many reputable instructors out there but until there is a way to tell good from bad I will keep on training at home with no instructor. I have no fancy uniform, no belt, no ceremony and my technique is not too hot but at least I do not have to worry if I am going to be cheated out of a lot of money.

This sort of behaviour reflects badly on the Kukkiwon as well. After all, the certifications are in their name and the instructor is using their name to advertise the business. Unless the kukkiwon starts caring about the issue there is not going to be any change in the situation.

 

[puunui]

Saying you would never sue is rediculous if you have paid for something you should recieve it!!

I would never sue any of my instructors.... because they would never do anything that would cause me harm. I read all these stories and think to myself if people spent just a little more time in the selection of their teachers, then more people wouldn't find themselves in these types of situations. My teachers don't act the way that other teachers do. That's why I study with them and call them my teachers. What is ridiculous is getting yourself in these types of situations in the first place. Martial arts instructors always preach about avoiding dangerous situations -- these situations are not limited to physical altercations only.

 

[troubleenuf]

There you go again... that impressive psychic ability that allows you to perceive more than the average bear. Could it be that you just are one of the LUCKY ones that got good instructors that didnt screw you?

I would never sue any of my instructors.... because they would never do anything that would cause me harm. I read all these stories and think to myself if people spent just a little more time in the selection of their teachers, then more people wouldn't find themselves in these types of situations. My teachers don't act the way that other teachers do. That's why I study with them and call them my teachers. What is ridiculous is getting yourself in these types of situations in the first place. Martial arts instructors always preach about avoiding dangerous situations -- these situations are not limited to physical altercations only.

 

[andyjeffries]

I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee. I think the last time it was $35.

I ordered a replacement about a month ago, it cost $10 in cash (posted to Korea).