Style of Aikido

[Spinedoc]

Does anyone recognize this style of Aikido, seems different than other styles I have observed.

Might not be, I am certainly no expert.

I am however starting Aikikai style Aikido tomorrow.

I'm 42, am I going to die? I think I'm going to die at the hands of the Shodan.

Concerned....

Mike

 

[oftheherd1]

Having read your thread on your first lesson, I guess we can conclude you didn't die yet? :lol:

 

[K-man]

Does anyone recognize this style of Aikido, seems different than other styles I have observed.

Might not be, I am certainly no expert.

I am however starting Aikikai style Aikido tomorrow.

I'm 42, am I going to die? I think I'm going to die at the hands of the Shodan.

Concerned....

Mike

This is a style called Real Aikido. The head guy Ljubamir Vracarevic started with Aikikai, saw what was happening in Yoshinkan and started his own style. It is a great demonstration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubomir_Vračarević

I love some of the ground techniques they performed.

And, yes, you are going to die, but hopefully not for another 60 or so years having disposed of all those nasty Shodan.

 

[Coker101]

Very aggressive stuff there. I'm not sure I would call it "real aikido" though...maybe that's what they call it I guess but "real Aikido" was thought by Morihei Ueshiba.

If it's different than Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido then it's not "real Aikido"...I mean he was the founder and all.

I'm a novice but that's my opinion. In my opinion it takes some real testicles to say "this is real aikido"...they should have named it something else I think.

 

[K-man]

Very aggressive stuff there. I'm not sure I would call it "real aikido" though...maybe that's what they call it I guess but "real Aikido" was thought by Morihei Ueshiba.

If it's different than Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido then it's not "real Aikido"...I mean he was the founder and all.

I'm a novice but that's my opinion. In my opinion it takes some real testicles to say "this is real aikido"...they should have named it something else I think.

What is 'real' Aikido? Is it the style taught by Tomiki or the style taught by Shioda? Maybe you prefer the Ki in Tohei's 'Ki Society'. There are so many styles now.

From the post-war period until the 1980s, numerous aikido organizations evolved in parallel to the main branch led by the Ueshiba family.
The earliest independent styles to emerge were
Yoshinkan aikido founded by Gozo Shioda in 1955,
Yoseikan aikido, begun by Minoru Mochizuki in 1931, and
Shodokan aikido, founded by Kenji Tomiki in 1967.
Shin'ei Taidō (親英体&#36947 is a style closely related to aikido, founded in 1956 by Noriaki Inoue (井上 鑑昭 Inoue Noriaki, 1902–1994), a nephew and pre-war student of Morihei Ueshiba.


The emergence of these styles pre-dated Ueshiba's death and did not cause any major upheavals when they were formalized. Shodokan aikido, did cause some controversy as it introduced a unique rule-based competition that some felt was contrary to the spirit of aikido.


After Ueshiba's death, more senior students branched out on their own to establish independent schools.


Iwama Ryu - This style evolved from Ueshiba's retirement in Iwama, Japan, and the teaching methodology of long term student Morihiro Saito. It is unofficially referred to as the "Iwama style". Saito's students have split into two groups; one remaining with the Aikikai and the other forming the independent organization Shinshin Aikishuren Kai (神信合気修練会?) in 2004 around Saito's son Hitohiro Saito (斎藤 仁弘 Saitō Hitohiro, born 1957).
Ki Society - Another event that caused significant controversy was the departure of the Aikikai Honbu Dojo's chief instructor Koichi Tohei, in 1974. Tohei left as a result of a disagreement with the son of the founder, Kisshomaru Ueshiba (植芝 吉祥丸 Ueshiba Kisshōmaru, 1921–1999), who at that time headed the Aikikai Foundation. The disagreement was over the proper role of ki development in regular aikido training. After Tohei left, he formed his own style, called Shin Shin Toitsu aikido, and the organization which governs it, the Ki Society.


Other important styles and organizations include:
The Kokusai Aikidō Kenshūkai Kobayashi Hirokazu Ha, or Kobayashi aikido, founded by Hirokazu Kobayashi.
Tendoryu aikido (天道流合気道 Tendō-ryū Aikidō founded by Kenji Shimizu (清水 健二 Shimizu Kenji, born 1940) in 1982. Founded the "Shimizu Dojo" in 1969, renamed it the Tendokan (天道館 Tendōkan) in 1975.
Shingu Style referring to the students of Michio Hikitsuchi
Nishio Style referring to the style of Shoji Nishio
Yamaguchi Style referring to the highly influential Seigo Yamaguchi
Manseikan Aikido founded by Kanshu Sunadomari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido_styles

How aggressive should Aikido be? In the early days Ueshiba taught Daito Ryu, extremely aggressive Jujutsu. He was quoted in saying at one stage that 70% of Aikido is atemi. Over the course of his life his aikido changed as did the style of teaching his students adopted. We still learn the atemi. Striking is the key to making things work if you haven't got Ki.

But looking at the video what you are seeing apart from realistic aikido is very good receiving. There is no way I could receive like that, even 20 or 30 years ago. To get to the level of those guys will take you a year or two but hopefully you will be able to utilise the techniques you learn if you need to in a real situation. Even with a martial art background it took me about six years to begin to feel confident in my Aikido ability.
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

What is 'real' Aikido? Is it the style taught by Tomiki or the style taught by Shioda? Maybe you prefer the Ki in Tohei's 'Ki Society'. There are so many styles now.



How aggressive should Aikido be? In the early days Ueshiba taught Daito Ryu, extremely aggressive Jujutsu. He was quoted in saying at one stage that 70% of Aikido is atemi. Over the course of his life his aikido changed as did the style of teaching his students adopted. We still learn the atemi. Striking is the key to making things work if you haven't got Ki.

But looking at the video what you are seeing apart from realistic aikido is very good receiving. There is no way I could receive like that, even 20 or 30 years ago. To get to the level of those guys will take you a year or two but hopefully you will be able to utilise the techniques you learn if you need to in a real situation. Even with a martial art background it took me about six years to begin to feel confident in my Aikido ability.
:asian:

I understand your point but unless the founder trained with Morihei Ueshiba it would be hard to make the claim that this is the real deal. That this is more effective and that everyone else is wrong.....it's the word "real" that gets me I think. Is it "real" as in the "real aikido art"...or real as in "a more realistic / efficient aikido than what Ueshiba created"? Both are very big words.


I know that post war Ueshiba's aikido became more about blending and less aggressive...from what I read anyway.

My personal opinion is that the only people who can make claims like "real aikido" are the ones who trained with Ueshiba.

Tomiki was one of the first students of Ueshiba so he could say "this is the real deal". But even then he incorporated judo so is it really Aikido?

Seems to me when people create a new "style" they should call it something different. Ueshiba called it aikido...not jujitsu. Know what I mean?

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is a style called Real Aikido. The head guy Ljubamir Vracarevic started with Aikikai, saw what was happening in Yoshinkan and started his own style. It is a great demonstration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubomir_Vračarević

I love some of the ground techniques they performed.

And, yes, you are going to die, but hopefully not for another 60 or so years having disposed of all those nasty Shodan.

What was happening in Yoshinkan?

 

[K-man]

I understand your point but unless the founder trained with Morihei Ueshiba it would be hard to make the claim that this is the real deal. That this is more effective and that everyone else is wrong.....it's the word "real" that gets me I think. Is it "real" as in the "real aikido art"...or real as in "a more realistic / efficient aikido than what Ueshiba created"? Both are very big words.


I know that post war Ueshiba's aikido became more about blending and less aggressive...from what I read anyway.

My personal opinion is that the only people who can make claims like "real aikido" are the ones who trained with Ueshiba.

Tomiki was one of the first students of Ueshiba so he could say "this is the real deal". But even then he incorporated judo so is it really Aikido?

Seems to me when people create a new "style" they should call it something different. Ueshiba called it aikido...not jujitsu. Know what I mean?

I think here the term is more to mean Aikido that can be utilised in the real world or as you say, more realistic. The first time I saw the term used was here in Australia and I thought it was a bit of a wank to be honest. It is almost disrespectful of all other aikido but to an extent he has a point. A lot of Aikido could be seen as ineffectual. I went to the Aikikai Hombu in New York when I visited there a few years back an was very disappointed in what I saw being taught. Techniques that could never work the way they were being taught by the senior students but worse than that, putting the student in a position that would enable an attacker to overcome them with little effort. And, the chief instructor, Yamada Sensei, did nothing to correct what was being taught. When that sort of thing happens it doesn't look good.

As for Tomiki. Ueshiba disagreed with his style of teaching for competition. Tohei was the chief instructor after Ueshiba's death but Kisshomaru disagreed with him teaching Ki so he went his own way. As for Tomiki incorporating Judo, Aikido is from the same origin so it inherently contains all that was in judo anyway. Ueshiba removed the elements that required physical strength so there are far less of the combative throws.

As to the name. Aiki-jujutsu was terminology used in the early days so Ueshiba was not alone in his thinking. Aiki-jutsu became Aiki-do the same as Ju-jutsu became Ju-do.

I teach Goju karate. I didn't study under Miyagi and I am totally independent. Does that mean I am not teaching 'real' Goju karate?
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

I think here the term is more to mean Aikido that can be utilised in the real world or as you say, more realistic. The first time I saw the term used was here in Australia and I thought it was a bit of a wank to be honest. It is almost disrespectful of all other aikido but to an extent he has a point. A lot of Aikido could be seen as ineffectual. I went to the Aikikai Hombu in New York when I visited there a few years back an was very disappointed in what I saw being taught. Techniques that could never work the way they were being taught by the senior students but worse than that, putting the student in a position that would enable an attacker to overcome them with little effort. And, the chief instructor, Yamada Sensei, did nothing to correct what was being taught. When that sort of thing happens it doesn't look good.

As for Tomiki. Ueshiba disagreed with his style of teaching for competition. Tohei was the chief instructor after Ueshiba's death but Kisshomaru disagreed with him teaching Ki so he went his own way. As for Tomiki incorporating Judo, Aikido is from the same origin so it inherently contains all that was in judo anyway. Ueshiba removed the elements that required physical strength so there are far less of the combative throws.

As to the name. Aiki-jujutsu was terminology used in the early days so Ueshiba was not alone in his thinking. Aiki-jutsu became Aiki-do the same as Ju-jutsu became Ju-do.

I teach Goju karate. I didn't study under Miyagi and I am totally independent. Does that mean I am not teaching 'real' Goju karate?
:asian:

Of course not but is the name of your school/style "the real Goju karate"?

If it's Goju karate as you learned it then that's what it is right? But if you were to change a few things and call it "real Goju karate" it would be a bit of a slap in the face to the others teaching Goju karate imo.

 

[K-man]

Of course not but is the name of your school/style "the real Goju karate"?

If it's Goju karate as you learned it then that's what it is right? But if you were to change a few things and call it "real Goju karate" it would be a bit of a slap in the face to the others teaching Goju karate imo.

Well of course I would say, mine is the 'real' Goju. Just that I wouldn't publicise it that way. But advertising being what it is ... good luck to him. But, I do take your point.
:asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

Does anyone recognize this style of Aikido, seems different than other styles I have observed.

Might not be, I am certainly no expert.

I am however starting Aikikai style Aikido tomorrow.

I'm 42, am I going to die? I think I'm going to die at the hands of the Shodan.

Concerned....

Mike

hmm... I'm no aikido guy, not even a little bit. But a couple things strike me about this. First, what makes people think that this is somehow more aggressive? Just looks to me like people moving fast. I don't see it as more or less aggressive. Just doing what's needed.

Second, I noticed, particularly with the first couple clips with the woman, that she tended to bend deeply at the waist when making a lot of her throws and takedowns. That strikes me as something that might compromise her base and put her in danger. Given that her segment of the video was done in front of a large audience, it was clearly a demonstration at some kind of event. And that makes me wonder how much of it was choreographed and compliant. One could make the worst techniques look wonderfully effective, if well choreographed with a compliant partner. I'm not saying they were faking it, but I just wonder if it wasn't so "real" as the presenters want us to believe?

some of the stuff strikes me as somewhat complicated solutions to the problem. For example, the guy dropping to the ground and doing the leg scissors takedowns, and rolling into a hold, that kind of thing. Jumping straight into the scissors from a standing position, on an advancing opponent, just seems like a complicated (and potentially risky) solution. That kind of thing makes me think, well mebbe you can get away with it in the training all, again with a semi compliant partner, but I wonder if it might not be so useful against a real opponent. but anyway, complicated tie-ups and whatnot.

eh, just my observations.

 

[Chris Parker]

As for Tomiki incorporating Judo, Aikido is from the same origin so it inherently contains all that was in judo anyway. Ueshiba removed the elements that required physical strength so there are far less of the combative throws.

As to the name. Aiki-jujutsu was terminology used in the early days so Ueshiba was not alone in his thinking. Aiki-jutsu became Aiki-do the same as Ju-jutsu became Ju-do.

Just for clarification, Aikido and Judo do not share the same origin, and do not share the same material or methodology... while both come from jujutsu sources, they come from quite different ones, with very different approaches, methodologies, tactical applications, historical usage, and more. And Aiki-jutsu only became Aikido for Ueshiba... with Jujutsu only becoming Judo for Kano. Aikijujutsu/Aikijutsu is still Aikijujutsu/Aikujutsu (in Daito Ryu, which is where Aikido comes from), Jujutsu is absolutely still Jujutsu in all arts that use/used the term (or similar), including Kito Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (both of which are the primary sources for Judo, originally just called Kano-ha Jujutsu), Takenouchi Ryu, Fusen Ryu, and, well, all other systems.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Given that her segment of the video was done in front of a large audience, it was clearly a demonstration at some kind of event. And that makes me wonder how much of it was choreographed and compliant.

Pretty much all of it. As you say, that doesn't mean they were "faking" it. It's just the nature of these demonstrations.

Some of the fancier moves look like they may have been borrowed from sambo.

 

[K-man]

What was happening in Yoshinkan?

Sorry, missed this post. I can't find the article I had been reading. Ljubamir Vracarevic died at the end on last year. He had studied under Kisshomaru and he also studied Yoshinkan. From memory I think he felt that what he had learned lacked what was needed in the real world as he was in the bodyguard industry.
:asian: