Students want to defend themselves
- Thread starter FearlessFreep
- Start date
It's hard to argue that there is a certain amount of common sense in the position. There are a number of potential problems too obvious to point out but if the afore-mentioned common sense is used then it may well be about the most practical way of dealing with the situation.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I've yet to hear a reasonable argument as to how law-abiding citizens being armed for their defense is a bad thing.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
It gives the peasantry ideas. Can't have that. They might not want their overlords "protecting" them anymore.
still learning
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Hello, One of the hardest thing about carrying guns? ...NOT many of those who do carry? ....will be ABLE TO SHOOT SOMEONE!
Most police or FBI will show many times people cannot shoot someone..and end up by shot by there own gun that was taken away.
Pistols even at two-three feet away in"Adrenline mode" ...is very hard to hit a tarket....PLUS the factor of "KILLING SOMEONE" ....
Students carrying guns? ...unless train to kill....is a BAD IDEA! Even police officers have a hard time to shoot someone...that is why?
You hear the term ...best be judge by 12 than bury by six...from many police officers...to train there mind to shoot first...NOT an easy thing to learn.
What happen on those campus was RARE ....you chance of being killed is greater on the roads or streets where students are DRIVING....Please DO NOT DRIVE till ..mature..(over 38 years old)
Aloha,
Most police or FBI will show many times people cannot shoot someone..and end up by shot by there own gun that was taken away.
Pistols even at two-three feet away in"Adrenline mode" ...is very hard to hit a tarket....PLUS the factor of "KILLING SOMEONE" ....
Students carrying guns? ...unless train to kill....is a BAD IDEA! Even police officers have a hard time to shoot someone...that is why?
You hear the term ...best be judge by 12 than bury by six...from many police officers...to train there mind to shoot first...NOT an easy thing to learn.
What happen on those campus was RARE ....you chance of being killed is greater on the roads or streets where students are DRIVING....Please DO NOT DRIVE till ..mature..(over 38 years old)
Aloha,
still learning
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Hello, Hardest thing to learn? ...is too fight back....no matter the odds or risk...
Ever face a mob? ...Aloha
Ever face a mob? ...Aloha
Explorer
Blue Belt
Hi Still Learning! While I agree that the issue of taking a life is HUGE; which many take too lightly, I'll have to take issue with the statement above. It is the common wisdom, but it doesn't appear to be true in light of recent studies.
In a study by Tark & Kleck (Univ of Fla Dept of Criminology) ... the incidence of injury fall DRAMATICALLY when the victim draws a gun. In fact, the incidence of injury falls to nearly zero when the gun comes out; plus the chance of the victim dying falls to ZERO. You don't have to take my word for it, you can order a copy of the study (I did; it's amazing reading) from the Journal 'Criminology'.
Prof Jon Lott studied every county in the US and found that out of about 2 million acts of self defense with a gun in the US yearly only 2% of the cases result in the trigger being pulled.
These two points negate the quoted assertion with actual case study work at the county level across the entire US. They also show us a trend ... that guns in the hands of law abiding citizens protect innocent life.
xo
Still Learning, you obviously haven't learned anything new in almost twenty years. In 1991 Gary Kleck published "Point Blank". His research had been published in many journals before. It won the highest award in academic criminology. The then-head of the Society wrote a glowing tribute called an appreciation "of a View Which I Have Opposed".
The "FBI Statistics" which you quote without ever having read show very, very clearly (UCR, NCVS, extensions of NCVS, other NIJ studies) that people who use firearms in self defense do not have them "taken away". They. Simply. Do. Not. The NIJ's best estimate was that that happened in less than 1/10,000th of 1% of defensive gun uses by non-police. Instead, they reduce the completed violent crime rate to the single or at most very low double digits. I've taken you to task before on this. You gave a BS non-answer that was so ambiguous it could be read to mean practically anything.
It happens to police more often because police have to do crazy things like get up close and personal with people and wrestle them into handcuffs. For the rest of us it's generally a matter of draw and watch him run away or draw and take the opportunity to run away. We aren't rolling around on the ground with the bad guys.
We have the research. We have the statistics. You know it. You keep spouting the same line. What sort of evidence other than "I know someone who knows a cop and besides everyone knows it" do you have for your position? So far the answer is "Nothing".
The "FBI Statistics" which you quote without ever having read show very, very clearly (UCR, NCVS, extensions of NCVS, other NIJ studies) that people who use firearms in self defense do not have them "taken away". They. Simply. Do. Not. The NIJ's best estimate was that that happened in less than 1/10,000th of 1% of defensive gun uses by non-police. Instead, they reduce the completed violent crime rate to the single or at most very low double digits. I've taken you to task before on this. You gave a BS non-answer that was so ambiguous it could be read to mean practically anything.
It happens to police more often because police have to do crazy things like get up close and personal with people and wrestle them into handcuffs. For the rest of us it's generally a matter of draw and watch him run away or draw and take the opportunity to run away. We aren't rolling around on the ground with the bad guys.
We have the research. We have the statistics. You know it. You keep spouting the same line. What sort of evidence other than "I know someone who knows a cop and besides everyone knows it" do you have for your position? So far the answer is "Nothing".
A little blunt, Todd but nonetheless I concur with your analysis of the available statistics.
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Those who have concealed carry permits, have passed background checks. They have no felonies on their records (unless completely expunged), and also do not have any of the other disqualifiers (violent misdemeanors, drug use, habitual drunkard).
For the overwhelming majority of these folks, they're not the kinds who are going to cause trouble. Unless the orbital mind control lasers were recently constructed, I strongly doubt that crossing that line where the city of Cincinnati becomes the University of Cincinnati, is going to change their demeanors in any way, shape, or form.
If anything, the arrest rates of those who have lawful carry permits, is most likely going to be significantly lower than the "average." Dave Kopel did an interesting study on this a dozen years ago:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html
For the overwhelming majority of these folks, they're not the kinds who are going to cause trouble. Unless the orbital mind control lasers were recently constructed, I strongly doubt that crossing that line where the city of Cincinnati becomes the University of Cincinnati, is going to change their demeanors in any way, shape, or form.
If anything, the arrest rates of those who have lawful carry permits, is most likely going to be significantly lower than the "average." Dave Kopel did an interesting study on this a dozen years ago:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html
Deaf Smith
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Many students are 21 years or older and in Texas to get a CHL license here in Texas (Concealed Handgun License) you have to:
(1) the applicant must be at least 21 years of age;
(2) the applicant must not have been convicted of a felony. An offense is considered a felony if at the time of an applicant's application for a license the offense:
(A) is designated by a law of this state as a felony;
(B) contains all the elements of an offense designated by a law of this state as a felony; or
(C) is punishable by confinement for one year or more in a penitentiary.
(3) the applicant must not be currently charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or an offense under Texas Penal Code, §42.01, or of a felony under an information or indictment;
(4) the applicant must not be a fugitive from justice for a felony or a Class A or Class B misdemeanor;
(5) the applicant must not be chemically dependent; (I.E. no drug addict.)
(6) the applicant must not, in the five years preceding the date of application, have been convicted of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or an offense under Texas Penal Code, §42.01. An offense is considered a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is not a felony and confinement in a jail other than a state jail felony facility is affixed as a possible punishment;
(7) the applicant must not have been finally determined to be delinquent in making a child support payment administered or collected by the attorney general, unless the applicant has since discharged the outstanding delinquency; (that means no dead-beat dads.)
(8) the applicant must not have been finally determined to be delinquent in the payment of a tax or other money collected by the comptroller, state treasurer, tax collector of a political subdivision of the state, Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, or any other agency or subdivision of the state, unless the applicant has since discharged the outstanding delinquency; (that means no tax cheats.)
(9) the applicant must not have been finally determined to be in default on a loan made under the Education Code, Chapter 57, unless the applicant has since discharged the outstanding delinquency; (that means no fancy doctors who welched out on their education loans.)
(10) the applicant must not be currently restricted by or subject to a court order that restrains the applicant from injuring, harassing, stalking, or threatening the applicant's spouse or intimate partner, or the child of the applicant, the applicant's spouse, or intimate partner. This paragraph includes a protective order issued under the Family Code §3.58 or §3.581, or Family Code, Chapter 71. This paragraph does not include any restraining order or protective order solely affecting property interests;
(That means if a Judge felt you were a danger to your spouse.)
(11) the applicant must not, in the 10 years preceding the date of application, have been adjudicated as having engaged in delinquent conduct violating a penal law of the grade of felony; (if a teenager did a crime, it takes 10 years of good behavior to get it off.)
There are more but you can see anyone who has a CHL in Texas is going to be pretty much above average. And get this, here are the crime stats for CHL holders in Texas as of year 2005:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2005.pdf
Deaf
(1) the applicant must be at least 21 years of age;
(2) the applicant must not have been convicted of a felony. An offense is considered a felony if at the time of an applicant's application for a license the offense:
(A) is designated by a law of this state as a felony;
(B) contains all the elements of an offense designated by a law of this state as a felony; or
(C) is punishable by confinement for one year or more in a penitentiary.
(3) the applicant must not be currently charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or an offense under Texas Penal Code, §42.01, or of a felony under an information or indictment;
(4) the applicant must not be a fugitive from justice for a felony or a Class A or Class B misdemeanor;
(5) the applicant must not be chemically dependent; (I.E. no drug addict.)
(6) the applicant must not, in the five years preceding the date of application, have been convicted of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or an offense under Texas Penal Code, §42.01. An offense is considered a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is not a felony and confinement in a jail other than a state jail felony facility is affixed as a possible punishment;
(7) the applicant must not have been finally determined to be delinquent in making a child support payment administered or collected by the attorney general, unless the applicant has since discharged the outstanding delinquency; (that means no dead-beat dads.)
(8) the applicant must not have been finally determined to be delinquent in the payment of a tax or other money collected by the comptroller, state treasurer, tax collector of a political subdivision of the state, Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, or any other agency or subdivision of the state, unless the applicant has since discharged the outstanding delinquency; (that means no tax cheats.)
(9) the applicant must not have been finally determined to be in default on a loan made under the Education Code, Chapter 57, unless the applicant has since discharged the outstanding delinquency; (that means no fancy doctors who welched out on their education loans.)
(10) the applicant must not be currently restricted by or subject to a court order that restrains the applicant from injuring, harassing, stalking, or threatening the applicant's spouse or intimate partner, or the child of the applicant, the applicant's spouse, or intimate partner. This paragraph includes a protective order issued under the Family Code §3.58 or §3.581, or Family Code, Chapter 71. This paragraph does not include any restraining order or protective order solely affecting property interests;
(That means if a Judge felt you were a danger to your spouse.)
(11) the applicant must not, in the 10 years preceding the date of application, have been adjudicated as having engaged in delinquent conduct violating a penal law of the grade of felony; (if a teenager did a crime, it takes 10 years of good behavior to get it off.)
There are more but you can see anyone who has a CHL in Texas is going to be pretty much above average. And get this, here are the crime stats for CHL holders in Texas as of year 2005:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2005.pdf
Deaf
