Street Kung Fu

[7starmantis]

I run into quite a few people who study kung fu merely for its wushu-ish properties of athleticism, performance, or competition. I study strictly for fighting and self defense. I find that it is fewer and farther between times when I meet someone who studies kung fu for self defense, or I meet someone who believes kung fu can be used for self defense. I feel completely confident in my abilities to defend myself on the street but I am curious as to why the big difference in training.

What is it that makes kung fu applicable to being used on the street? OR what is it that makes in ineffective for pure self defense? If you study CMA do you do so for self defense? If so, why did you decide on kung fu for that self defense training? What made you pick kung fu over krav maga or the like? Can kung fu be compared to systems like KM as far as usefullness or realistic usage goes?

Sorry, lots of questions, just being curious today.

7sm

 

[CloudChaser]

i'm embarrassed to admit that i was originally attracted to kung fu because it just looked totally coooool <sheepish grin>

when it comes to self defense though, i'd probably would resort to krav maga type moves... whatever it takes to survive and it's not gonna be pretty!

 

[7starmantis]

i'm embarrassed to admit that i was originally attracted to kung fu because it just looked totally coooool <sheepish grin>

when it comes to self defense though, i'd probably would resort to krav maga type moves... whatever it takes to survive and it's not gonna be pretty!

Don't feel bad, I think alot of people got involved with kung fu for those reasons. I think that its sad not more understand its power before joining, but thats ok.

When you say krav maga type moves, what exactly do you mean? Serious, damaging, conflict-ending moves? If so what makes them more krav maga than CMA?

Please don't take this as an attack, I'm seriously interested in what people think and believe about CMA.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

Good question 7SM.

I'm one of those that study kung fu primarily for the performance aspect. And I'm not ashamed of it.

I'm a professional performer, and my interest is to develop kinestetic awareness, to help me move well on stage.

I DO consider Kung Fu to be effective, but I consider self defence to be a nice side benefit of my hobby.

To be honest, I question the value of studying ANY martial art *exclusively* for self defence. Honestly, I don't expect to be getting in any fights any time soon. If all you want is self defence, carry pepper spray. Or a gun.

Here's some things to consider.

1) Much of the Kung Fu knowledge was preserved by the Peking Opera. Kung Fu has a "performance" aspect that other arts don't.

2) Kung Fu was invented, not for fighting but to teach Buddhist principles.

3) Kung Fu is BEAUTIFUL. Just plain beautiful to watch.

4) The Chinese forms have a quality about them that other styles don't. Its hard to explain, but when I perform Kung fu forms, I feel a flow that is absent from other arts, as though I was moving with the rhythm of the universe.

 

[7starmantis]

To be honest, I question the value of studying ANY martial art *exclusively* for self defence. Honestly, I don't expect to be getting in any fights any time soon. If all you want is self defence, carry pepper spray. Or a gun.

What value are we discussing here? If value is measured by performance, than I see your point. If however, it is measured by effectivness, I don't understand what your saying at all.

Here's some things to consider.

1) Much of the Kung Fu knowledge was preserved by the Peking Opera. Kung Fu has a "performance" aspect that other arts don't.

2) Kung Fu was invented, not for fighting but to teach Buddhist principles.

3) Kung Fu is BEAUTIFUL. Just plain beautiful to watch.

4) The Chinese forms have a quality about them that other styles don't. Its hard to explain, but when I perform Kung fu forms, I feel a flow that is absent from other arts, as though I was moving with the rhythm of the universe.

I'm not sure that I agree with many of these points about kung fu. I'll adress them point by point.

1) IF your speaking of wushu I guess I could agree with you to a point about number 1, but I think you should research your CMA history a bit more. The peking opera was not involved with kung fu in general, but in performance. The two aspects kept a wide and distant seperation from one another. Performance is a large aspect of the Chinese Government's National Wushu, but don't be fooled into thinking that is all there is about kung fu.

2) Kung Fu was "invented" for protection and to increase health. Plain and simple, it was not to teach principles. I think you are confusing some Shaolin history here.

3) I agree, kung fu is beautiful to watch, but it is because of its effectivness. I think you should broaden your horizons and serach out some different styles of kung fu. Mantis is beautiful to me, but some see and and think it is horrible. Ask anyone who has fought a skilled mantis practitioner, its not about performance.

4) This flow is the fluidity of the movements, moving from one technique to another, and it is in many arts, not simply kung fu. Yes, it is different from many systems like karate and such, but it seems you are seeing the effectivness and not understanding what exactly it is.

7sm

 

[Tony]

In my style of Kung Fu we hardly do any of the acrobatic stuff! We have been doing a lot of forms recently as we have a grading coming up soon.
My instructor likes to see the forms performed as if it were for real, as if we were being attacked. He will sometimes get us to dissect moves out of each forms for self defence applications, which makes you think more and what techniques are available to you. So now I have been trying to do this when I'm not in class, to try and analyse each move and how effective they would be. There are some very useful techniques, along with Chin na that also exists in the forms. But I have always been interested in learning Kung Fu. I haven't felt the same sensations doing Taekwondo or Judo. I have learned more from Kung Fu and I love the way it is taught. There is a purpose behind everything we do and it is a thinking Martial Art, so being a deep person that appeals to me. Plus I prefer the uniforms in Kung Fu to Karate and taekwondo, but that isn't the reason why I chose Kung Fu.
I am aware of what kind of techniques would and wouldn't work in a street fight, and I have learnt many dangerous techniques and some effective enough to cause severe pain!
I like Kung Fu, because it has everything, hand strikes of all kinds, kicks, locks, holds, throws and weapons.

 

[CloudChaser]

hey 7sm,
i guess what i meant by krav maga type moves are the 'down-and-dirty' tactics... i realize kung fu has its own arsenal of simple yet lethal techniques, but i just have difficulty picturing myself implementing a graceful kung fu move to save my life than something like krav maga which to me, seems more brutally street-realistic and practical...
and the fact that i'm not very confident in my kung fu skills probably has something to do with this mindset too, heh...

 

[7starmantis]

I can understand a lack of confidence in kung fu skills as it sometimes takes quite a while to become skilled at them, however if you have ever had a chin na joint lock applied to you you understand the effectiveness and brutally street-realistic and practical side of kung fu. I think its people who don't understand some of the more advanced techniques that feel this way. We do lots of eye gouges, breaks, and chin na in our system, I couldn't see finding anything more usefull to me in a pure defense type situation.

I believe the difference is the training methods. People join a KM class and the first night they are wailing on a focus mat with knees elbows and kicks walking out completely exhausted, feeling like they learned something good. They may have learned something great, but other training methods are effective as well, and no less instrutional.

7sm

 

[markulous]

To me if you are just doing because it looks nice and not applying it practically then it's not a martial art it's just an art or dance.

Anyway I obviously don't study it for fancy movements. There is a lot of practicality(sp?) from Kung Fu that can be transferred to the street. The foot work and balance are definately valuable. It can mix well with boxing, muay thai, and other arts that we come across. I wouldn't want to dedicate my life to it(or any one art for that matter) but a lot of great things can be learned from it.

 

[7starmantis]

I think I have allready dedicated my life to it, as far as mantis kung fu goes I will be studying it until I die. There is just so much to learn in kung fu, you can never really reach the top where you have it all learned as in some systems. To be really skilled or effective it takes that type of commitment, so I will be a student until I die, most true kung fu sifus will tell you the same thing.

7sm

 

[markulous]

I think I have allready dedicated my life to it, as far as mantis kung fu goes I will be studying it until I die. There is just so much to learn in kung fu, you can never really reach the top where you have it all learned as in some systems. To be really skilled or effective it takes that type of commitment, so I will be a student until I die, most true kung fu sifus will tell you the same thing.

7sm

Well to me, I agree with the saying: "When the strong winds come, the tall oak is the first to fall. The willow stands because it's roots are far." It might be worded a little different. But basically I would rather experience the basics of everything than study and just train in one thing(and not just in MA). But that's just me.

 

[7starmantis]

Thats a good point, but the tree with the deepest root stands, not the most widely spread roots.

I can understand that, but your still just working on basics. Even if its basics from different styles its still basic techniques. To me, the guy who is advanced will beat me even if I'm great at my basics, simply because he is more advanced and experienced.

I guess I just don't understand, maybe I'm old fashioned, I prefer to be truly great at one thing then medeocre at many. I'm not saying your medeocre at all, maybe its just my mental block.

7sm

 

[RHD]

I beleive there's a really sad situation ongoing in CMA, and that is that far too many teachers really don't know much other than forms. I'm not picking on anyone specifically, so please don't thing I'm aiming these comments at anyone here on the board!
Unfortunately the majority of other kung fu practitioners that I've encountered do not know how to use thier own systems beyond simple "block and punch". Most degrade into bastardized kick boxing for thier fighting, and self defense is either not based in reality, or not from thier own technical base.
I wish I ad a plan of action to help fix things, but I'm nolonger that optimistic because most often when I interact with these misled people they become very defensive...to the point of extreme denial over the fact that they haven't learned well. :idunno:
Mike

 

[7starmantis]

You know, I completely agree with you. There is a sad situation going on in CMA and it has been brewing for a while. Its bothering me how many start learning CMA simply for grace, or pretty fighting and train for 5 years not ever seeing more to it than that. To me, that means their instructor is missing something. There was a time when CMA were trained for strict serious combat and were known for their effectivness.

I may still be young yet, but I do wish there was something we could do about it. My organization is working hard to do just that, but one organization can't reach many, especially those allready training who do seem to get quite defensive at the notion they are not training as realistic as possible :idunno: . In all seriousness, CMA are getting watered down and its ruining their reputation and the reputation of those who train in it, even those who train seriously.

7sm

 

[Matt Bernius]

Here's some things to consider.
) Much of the Kung Fu knowledge was preserved by the Peking Opera. Kung Fu has a "performance" aspect that other arts don't.

Ok, the Peking Opera plays an important role in the Chinese Martial Art tradition. However, it's role was never to presever Kung Fu. And if anything what they practiced was a forerunner to government Wu Shu (which at the end of the day has little to do with traditional Kung Fu). It's a BIG stretch to suggest that they were a major preserver of Martial Arts (at best, I'd suggest that they got people interested in the Arts, not unlike MA movies today).

Secondly the MA are tied to performance in many cultures. The Indo/Malay arts have a heavy dance/performance aspect to them (see a recent Journal of the Asian Martial Arts which explores Malay Martial Dance). The same was true in the Phillipines. And in Brazil you have Capoeria which has combined performance and martial arts. So this is not an area that the CMA has an exclusive corner on (and we haven't even addressed western stage fighting with teaches a lot of western weapons).

2) Kung Fu was invented, not for fighting but to teach Buddhist principles.

No other way to put this than: DEAD WRONG. CMA predate Bodidharma's visit by quite a bit. In fact Long Fist was used as a root art for Shaolin Kung Fu. You might, squinting, be able to suggest that modern Kung Fu (beginning at Shaolin Temple) was initally used to help support Buddist practice. Howeer, looking at it's evolution and the various subsystems that were created, the truth is it was geared for fighting. Subsystems like Preying Mantis were created for the expressed purpose of besting existing systems in combat.

I'm down (on a personal level) with the rest of your points.

As for CMA's effictiveness in the streets, it's there, no question. However, what people take issue with I think is the dicotamy between how the material is shown in form and how it often looks when it's applied. People think of Kung Fu forms as open and flowing. But the application is direct. I'd expect uninitated people would see Xing Yi, with it's short, explosive work, applied and be sure that they are seeing a "Modern Fighting System" (like KM).

Any I also think it's true that too many CMA are content to work form and never really test their techniques in an "Alive" fashion.

- Matt

 

[CloudChaser]

any martial art is effective on the streets if you know how to use it correctly... i also gotta agree with the point made that maybe CMA is just not advertised as a self-defense art as much as styles like TKD and karate? TKD shows off flashy forms too, but ppl seem to take it more seriously as a butt-kicking style than kung fu... go figure

well, if ppl want to see kung fu as a 'wussy' style, let them... the element of surprise will just provide more of a combat-advantage then, ha!

 

[RHD]

TKD shows off flashy forms too, but ppl seem to take it more seriously as a butt-kicking style than kung fu... go figure

"cough...cough...sputter...gasp" :uhyeah:
Not where I'm from...
Mike

 

[7starmantis]

What really gets to me is those who currently "study" kung fu and still say things like that! That gets me to no end!

7sm

 

[markulous]

any martial art is effective on the streets if you know how to use it correctly... i also gotta agree with the point made that maybe CMA is just not advertised as a self-defense art as much as styles like TKD and karate? TKD shows off flashy forms too, but ppl seem to take it more seriously as a butt-kicking style than kung fu... go figure

well, if ppl want to see kung fu as a 'wussy' style, let them... the element of surprise will just provide more of a combat-advantage then, ha!

TKD can be a really good art if done and taught properly. It's tricky because you have to have power and speed. And karate...well it depends. Most karate I don't care for because it relies on too many blocks, horse stances, along with big reverse kicks/punches. But I know it seems most schools of the lame schools either adopt the title of "Karate" or "Tae Kwon Do" but I wouldn't base those arts too much off of those schools.

 

[Tony]

I definately think Kung Fu can be used effectively on the streets if you know what techniques are useful. Look at Wing Chun which has very few kicks and most of which are barely above the waist, good emphasis on centre line, and there are some good practical techniques.