Stirring the Pot: Kwan Identity

[dancingalone]

I came across this old post from an inactive member:

I also agree. Different strokes for different folks.

What's sad is not the addition of the newer taekwondo forms, but the subtraction of the time-tested karate forms brought to Korea by the original kwan-founders. It's kind of like disowning your parents — and your grandparents and the rest of the family tree with them. Wouldn't that be just a tad disrespectful and unappreciative? As we say in Texas, "Don't forget to dance with the one who brung you."

More specifically, what's especially sad is that some schools latch onto an old kwan name only for some vestige of history or credibility, with nothing to back it up. But in fact their instructors preserved absolutely nothing from that kwan's formative curriculum. To them, and through no fault of their own, the kwan exists in name alone and not in substance. Generations before them, their kwan's original forms were thrown out the window in their entirety, to make room for the new taekwondo forms.That's okay with me, but you can't have it both ways.

If your present forms sufficiently preserve your art, then so be it. There are many paths to the mountain top. Ultimately, every worthwhile endeavor leads to the same destination.

I think Mr. Fine has a point. And it doesn't matter whether we are KKW, ITF, or independent. If we don't practice the kwan curriculum from that time, perhaps we shouldn't hang onto the old associations.

Granted, from a few of puunui's posts, I gather that's the general feeling among many of the current Korean seniors anyway. "It doesn't matter now."

 

[puunui]

But Kwan identity goes beyond simply what the Kwan curriculum is or was at some point in time. We need to remember that the Kwan curriculum changed over time, in much the same way that the curriculum at any other institution of learning has changed. I am sure that my elementary school, middle school, high school, college or grad school has changed since the time I was there, or at least I sincerely hope so.

Now that there is a unified curriculum for Kukki Taekwondo (which encompasses and includes the Oh Do Kwan by the way, since there was an Oh Do Kwan representative on the KTA committee that created the Kukkiwon poomsae), the Kwans are now more about relationships than technical matters.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I see both sides of this coin.. . For those who acknowledge their Kwan lineage, I can see where it doesn't matter what your curriculum is currently. This is vastly different than Karate styles, where things haven't necessarily "evolved" in the manner that TKD has. There has been so many splinters between the time of the founding of the original kwans and the current state of the KKW and the MDK.

It is always, IMHO, a good thing to acknowledge where you come from. From my personal lineage, there are a great number of holes in my history that I continue to strive to fill. THANK YOU MT AND ALL THE POSTERS WHO HAVE HELPED ME IN THAT PURSUIT. Because my association still practices the Shotokan form sets, I look to shotokan for insight. Unfortunately my KJN is still very closed about his past, unlike what some of the other "pioneers" that Puunui have spoken with. He may be more open now, but it had been so very discouraged in the past that I am cautious of putting myself under that bus.

There were many in the past that had little to do with the Kwans that used that name, i.e. KIM Ki Whang and Jhoon Rhee (both of which were under the MDK name for a time, but weren't really students of HWANG Kee) As has been said on other threads, from a cultural standpoint there is more emphasis on relationships than criteria.

I am proud of my MDK heritage, and we teach what has been taught to us. I cannot verify if we are practicing the curriculum that my KJN was taught, since I do not know who my KJN's instructor was. But we do teach the form sets that the MDK taught back in the 60's, that I know. But I also know that there are other schools that are MDK that practice other forms (Chil Sung, Yuk Ro), which doesn't make them any less or any more MDK than I am. We have the same alma mater, using the Puunui's analogy, just different teachers.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

This may not be EXACTLY along the lines of the OP, but I am curious if any of you know about these forms. When the first examination of the unified kwans under TKD occured, these were the form requirements. Some I know, some I do not, I have parenthesized what I think but I am not certain. I am curious of what those who claim Kwan heritage know of the hyungs that those kwans practiced and where these forms fall into each kwan curriculum.

[FONT=&quot]The hyung portion of the examination consisted of the examinees performing two of the following forms of their choice:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Second Dan Hyung:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Balhan Hyung Dae[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Chul Ki E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi E Dan)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Naebojin E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi E Dan ?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Kima E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #2?)[/FONT][/FONT]

5. [FONT=&quot]Choong Moo Hyung (General Choi form?)[/FONT]


​

[FONT=&quot] Third Dan Hyung:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Ship Su Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Pal Sae Hyung (Bassai)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Yon Bi Hyung (Wanshu)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Dan Kwon Hyung (Ch’uan Fa form?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. [FONT=&quot]No Pae Hyung (Ro Hai?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. [FONT=&quot]Ge Baek Hyung (General Choi form)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. [FONT=&quot]Ul Ji Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]Fourth Dan Hyung: [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Chul Ki Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Naebojin Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Kima Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Ja Un Hyung; Jin Soo Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. [FONT=&quot]Am Hak Hyung (Chinto?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. [FONT=&quot]Jin Dong Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. [FONT=&quot]Sam Il Hyung (ITF form?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8. [FONT=&quot]Jang Kwon Hyung (Ch’uan Fa form?)[/FONT][/FONT]


​

[FONT=&quot]Fifth Dan Hyung:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Kong Sang Kun Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Kwan Kong Hyung (Kong Sang Kun?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Oh Ship Sa Hyung (Moo Duk Kwan form)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Ship Sam Hyung (ITF form?)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. [FONT=&quot]Ban Wol Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. [FONT=&quot]Pal Ki Kwon Hyung (Ch’uan Fa form?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

 

[bluewaveschool]

I recognize all the Choi/ITF forms except for the last one.

 

[dancingalone]

It's interesting that 3 different names are listed for the Naihanchi forms. Kima, Chul Gi, and Naebojin are all alternate Korean names for the same thing. I wonder if there is significance in all three being used? If someone mentioned the Naihanchi kata to me by that name, I could reasonably expect to see any number of variations on the same form, whereas the name Tekki would clearly signify the Shotokan version.

I believe Am Hak hyung is the Chinto kata.

Dan Kwon and Jang Kwon are indeed Chuan Fa forms. I posted a Youtube performance of the 2 man Jang Kwon set in this thread about the Chang Moo Kwan: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78417

Isn't that Pal Ki Kwon form the Holy Grail for Moo Duk Kwan people? It's supposed to be the key to understanding Hwang Kee's martial arts.

Ben, do you know what Balhan Dae and Ban Wol are? Those names have me puzzled.

 

[dancingalone]

I recognize all the Choi/ITF forms except for the last one.

Ship Sam = Seisan kata

There are many variations of Seisan across karate, but I imagine Ship Sam probably looks closest to Hangetsu, the Shotokan version.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It's interesting that 3 different names are listed for the Naihanchi forms. Kima, Chul Gi, and Naebojin are all alternate Korean names for the same thing. I wonder if there is significance in all three being used? If someone mentioned the Naihanchi kata to me by that name, I could reasonably expect to see any number of variations on the same form, whereas the name Tekki would clearly signify the Shotokan version.

I believe Am Hak hyung is the Chinto kata.

Dan Kwon and Jang Kwon are indeed Chuan Fa forms. I posted a Youtube performance of the 2 man Jang Kwon set in this thread about the Chang Moo Kwan: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78417

Isn't that Pal Ki Kwon form the Holy Grail for Moo Duk Kwan people? It's supposed to be the key to understanding Hwang Kee's martial arts.

Ben, do you know what Balhan Dae and Ban Wol are? Those names have me puzzled.

I've always wondered the significance of having three different names for the Naihanchi forms myself. When I first came across the list, I didn't know those were all three names for the Naihanchi's. Everything in parentheses is what I had came up from googling the names of the forms on the list. Things that don't have anything in parentheses, I couldn't find anything about. I have no idea what Balhan Dae or Ban Wol mean, I'm not sure if it was a problem with the translation/romanization, or what. However, I do not claim to have a perfect command of the Korean language. Actually I have more of a kindergarden grasp of the Korean language, haha! I can sound out Hanja, and I know our terminology and some basic phrases. I've always wanted to learn more vocabulary, just haven't set aside the time.

I'm not sure about the Pal Ki Kwon form, I've always heard the "holy grail" for the Soo Bahk Do MDK's is Hwa Sun, which I have never seen.

Thank you very much for your input, I know little about the curriculum of other kwan's; their form names and what they looked like.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Dancing, do you know if the kicks in the video you posted of Jang Kwon are typical of that form or just the way those particular martial artists practice it? There was no terminal extension of any of their kicks. The whole form looks very foreign to me.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

After doing some more digging, I found a site that says Ban Wol is a korean term for Seisan, Pal Ki Kwon for Bajiquan, Am Hak for Rohai. Seisan and Rohai I'm familiar with, Bajiquan sounds Chinese, but I'm not familiar with (gotta youtube that one).

The site is http://www.myosim.com/karate/traditional_kata.html

 

[dancingalone]

Dancing, do you know if the kicks in the video you posted of Jang Kwon are typical of that form or just the way those particular martial artists practice it? There was no terminal extension of any of their kicks. The whole form looks very foreign to me.

I do not know. I have studied some cha quan, a Chinese style with the same soft appearance, and while we did not chamber kicks in cha quan, it was normal practice to extend kicks fully. In contrast, these two gentlemen definitely are shorting the kicks a bit.

 

[Miles]

But Kwan identity goes beyond simply what the Kwan curriculum is or was at some point in time. .........
Now that there is a unified curriculum for Kukki Taekwondo (which encompasses and includes the Oh Do Kwan by the way, since there was an Oh Do Kwan representative on the KTA committee that created the Kukkiwon poomsae), the Kwans are now more about relationships than technical matters.

Last month I had the good fortune of hosting GM Park, Hae Man who while sitting in my living room with me, went through his American students, state-by-state, alphabetically, I might add. Many of these students are GMs in their own right and it was a veritable "who's who." Not all of them perform the KKW curriculum. It is very much about the relationship rather than the technical matters as Puunui points out. BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, Puunui is on GM Park's list and my relationship with GM Park, which I absolutely treasure, is due in no small part to Puunui's encouragement and guidance. Thank you Sir!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

SahBumNimRush; This may not be EXACTLY along the lines of the OP, but I am curious if any of you know about these forms. When the first examination of the unified kwans under TKD occured, these were the form requirements. Some I know, some I do not, I have parenthesized what I think but I am not certain. I am curious of what those who claim Kwan heritage know of the hyungs that those kwans practiced and where these forms fall into each kwan curriculum.

[FONT=&quot]The hyung portion of the examination consisted of the examinees performing two of the following forms of their choice:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Second Dan Hyung:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Balhan Hyung Dae[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Chul Ki E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi E Dan)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Naebojin E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi E Dan ?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Kima E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #2?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

5. [FONT=&quot]Choong Moo Hyung (General Choi form?) YES 2nd FROM DESIGNED BY HIM, WITH NAM TAE HI[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Third Dan Hyung:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Ship Su Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Pal Sae Hyung (Bassai)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Yon Bi Hyung (Wanshu)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Dan Kwon Hyung (Ch’uan Fa form?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]5. [FONT=&quot]No Pae Hyung (Ro Hai?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]6. [FONT=&quot]Ge Baek Hyung (General Choi form) YES 5th DESIGNED WITH HELP OF CHOI CHANG KEUN[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]7. [FONT=&quot]Ul Ji Hyung ALSO ITF PATTERN, 3rd DESIGNED BY GEN CHOI WITH THE HELP OF HAN CHA KYO & NAM TAE HI[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Fourth Dan Hyung: [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Chul Ki Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Naebojin Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Kima Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Ja Un Hyung; Jin Soo Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]5. [FONT=&quot]Am Hak Hyung (Chinto?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]6. [FONT=&quot]Jin Dong Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]7. [FONT=&quot]Sam Il Hyung (ITF form?) YES[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]8. [FONT=&quot]Jang Kwon Hyung (Ch’uan Fa form?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Fifth Dan Hyung:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. [FONT=&quot]Kong Sang Kun Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]2. [FONT=&quot]Kwan Kong Hyung (Kong Sang Kun?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]3. [FONT=&quot]Oh Ship Sa Hyung (Moo Duk Kwan form)[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]4. [FONT=&quot]Ship Sam Hyung (ITF form?) NOT AN ITF PATTERN[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]5. [FONT=&quot]Ban Wol Hyung[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]6. [FONT=&quot]Pal Ki Kwon Hyung (Ch’uan Fa form?)[/FONT][/FONT]​

ALSO WHERE IS ITF HWARANG TUL, THE 1ST KOREAN FORM MADE?

 

[hkfuie]

It is always, IMHO, a good thing to acknowledge where you come from. From my personal lineage, there are a great number of holes in my history that I continue to strive to fill. THANK YOU MT AND ALL THE POSTERS WHO HAVE HELPED ME IN THAT PURSUIT. Because my association still practices the Shotokan form sets, I look to shotokan for insight. Unfortunately my KJN is still very closed about his past, unlike what some of the other "pioneers" that Puunui have spoken with. He may be more open now, but it had been so very discouraged in the past that I am cautious of putting myself under that bus.

There were many in the past that had little to do with the Kwans that used that name, i.e. KIM Ki Whang and Jhoon Rhee (both of which were under the MDK name for a time, but weren't really students of HWANG Kee) As has been said on other threads, from a cultural standpoint there is more emphasis on relationships than criteria.

I am proud of my MDK heritage, and we teach what has been taught to us. I cannot verify if we are practicing the curriculum that my KJN was taught, since I do not know who my KJN's instructor was. But we do teach the form sets that the MDK taught back in the 60's, that I know. But I also know that there are other schools that are MDK that practice other forms (Chil Sung, Yuk Ro), which doesn't make them any less or any more MDK than I am. We have the same alma mater, using the Puunui's analogy, just different teachers.

SahBumNimRush, I have to second the thanks you extended to everyone posting all this great discussion on TKD here on MT. And I have to tell you you have already paid it forward to me with this thread.

My lineage is through KIM Ki Whang and I know only that I was told we are MDK, but no one has been able to tell me more. This info on the forms is very interesting to me and I am so happy to have found it, so thanks for posting it. We do Chang Hon forms now, though we are not affiliated with the ITF. I look forward to reading the lists/translations provided here and learning more.

And thanks for starting the thread, Dancingalone. I have not been on the boards for a long time and am very excited to find these discussions about TKD.

Don't have anything to add, just my gratitude!

Steph

 

[bluewaveschool]

SahBumNimRush, I have to second the thanks you extended to everyone posting all this great discussion on TKD here on MT. And I have to tell you you have already paid it forward to me with this thread.

My lineage is through KIM Ki Whang and I know only that I was told we are MDK, but no one has been able to tell me more. This info on the forms is very interesting to me and I am so happy to have found it, so thanks for posting it. We do Chang Hon forms now, though we are not affiliated with the ITF. I look forward to reading the lists/translations provided here and learning more.

And thanks for starting the thread, Dancingalone. I have not been on the boards for a long time and am very excited to find these discussions about TKD.

Don't have anything to add, just my gratitude!

Steph

who, if anyone, are you affiliated with?