Standard vs Deluxe?

[Supra Vijai]

Hi,

I've been having a look at Tozando/Bokken Shop just to check out the different items out there and compile a wish list of things I want to get and I'm unclear on the difference between a standard bokken and a deluxe bokken.

The only thing I've can see clearly is the deluxe version has a "chevroned" spine as opposed to the flat spine on the standard bokken. Does this make a difference for use in class (as a non koryu practitioner who is still learning proper grip etc).

Are there any other major differences that would lead you to recommend one over the other (apart from the price). Also, what are your thoughts on this saya? http://www.tozandoshop.com/Plastic_Saya_p/002-wps.htm

Just to practice drawing & noto without going to a iaito/mogito yet.

Thanks!

 

[Sukerkin]

Evening Vijai.

Having a saya for your bokken can only be a good thing. It is not the same, of course, as a proper iaito et al but it will get you used to drawing out and avoiding one of the biggest early mistakes - which is starting the cut whilst the blade is still undrawn.

I'm not sure that there is much true difference between a 'standard' and 'deluxe' bokken. It may be that the wood and shaping is higher quality, preventing splintering when there is over-enthusiastic contact in partner forms but, I am not ashamed to say, the bokken I use cost me £10 from a 'role playing' shop and it is easily the most durable and robust bokken I have ever seen .

Sensei made me a 'saya' for it out heat formed waste-water pipe (which is black) and it's been in constant use for seven years without splintering, cracking or misbehaving .

 

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks Suke I can't argue that it won't be the same as an Iaito but I'm nowhere near ready to own/handle an actual blade (of any description) so would like to work on technique with a good quality bokken first. Down the track though, after a lot more work and the appropriate licence, I'll definitely be in the market for something more shiny lol

I'm currently using a mass produced locally bought white oak bokken and while it's a lot better than my old red oak one, the weight and balance are terrible - it's too tip heavy which makes it great for forearm conditioning but not so much for control during cuts - and bulky especially in the tsuka. Same goes for my shoto as well. With the saya, I think I read somewhere on here that there are resin saya available which are more durable than the plastic ones. Are you able to point me in the direction of a good one?

 

[Sukerkin]

Sorry my friend, on the subject of resin saya I have no experience, so I cannot really aid you in that regard.

However, one of the major reasons for having students, who are just starting out on the road of iai, using bokken, is so that they can taste what iai 'is' before lashing out a lot of money on an iaito.

Your committment seems clear from what you write here at MT and, if your sensei permits, then there is no reason not to seriously consider getting an iaito sooner rather than later. Yes, there is the risk that you will damage it if your techniques let you down but you will learn much better with a 'sword' than with a stick.

I trained for a few months with a hideously awful 'wallhanger' in my early steps and even that was better than a bokken for learning fundamentals such as the straight draw to the point of exit from the saya. Not something I would recommend, mind you, but it was what I had. As ever, the advice when it comes to buying a blade (iaito or live) is follow your sensei's lead and get the best you can afford. I wasted hundreds of Pounds buying successively better blades as I improved :O.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I can’t see any difference.

Are you using it strictly for iai? Solo and partner practice? Light to no contact? How quickly are you getting an iaito?

Personally stay away from red oak. Go with white oak or what I prefer, hickory. My hickory bokken is 12 years old, used weekly for heavy jodo practice, NP’s.

I agree with Suk, go to a hardware store and pick up a length of black plastic pipe, it’ll work just as well.

And I never miss an opportunity to flog my sensei’s store….. http://sdksupplies.com/

 

[Ken Morgan]

Your committment seems clear from what you write here at MT and, if your sensei permits, then there is no reason not to seriously consider getting an iaito sooner rather than later. Yes, there is the risk that you will damage it if your techniques let you down but you will learn much better with a 'sword' than with a stick.

the advice when it comes to buying a blade (iaito or live) is follow your sensei's lead and get the best you can afford. I wasted hundreds of Pounds buying successively better blades as I improved :O.

Agreed.

IF you are sticking around, buy an iaito ASAP. A good one, from a good supplier. Its up to your sensei of couse, but note I said iaito, and not a shinken....

 

[Ken Morgan]

Thanks Suke I can't argue that it won't be the same as an Iaito but I'm nowhere near ready to own/handle an actual blade (of any description) so would like to work on technique with a good quality bokken first. Down the track though, after a lot more work and the appropriate licence, I'll definitely be in the market for something more shiny lol

I'm currently using a mass produced locally bought white oak bokken and while it's a lot better than my old red oak one, the weight and balance are terrible - it's too tip heavy which makes it great for forearm conditioning but not so much for control during cuts - and bulky especially in the tsuka. Same goes for my shoto as well. With the saya, I think I read somewhere on here that there are resin saya available which are more durable than the plastic ones. Are you able to point me in the direction of a good one?

Up to you and your sensei of course, but I'd buy a half way decent bokken just to have, but I'd be shopping around for an iaito by now. To an extent, you will always relearn what you've already learned everytime you change what weapon is in your hand. Why waste time? Just move ahead.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Sorry my friend, on the subject of resin saya I have no experience, so I cannot really aid you in that regard.

However, one of the major reasons for having students, who are just starting out on the road of iai, using bokken, is so that they can taste what iai 'is' before lashing out a lot of money on an iaito.

Your committment seems clear from what you write here at MT and, if your sensei permits, then there is no reason not to seriously consider getting an iaito sooner rather than later. Yes, there is the risk that you will damage it if your techniques let you down but you will learn much better with a 'sword' than with a stick.

No probs about the saya, was worth a shot :uhyeah: At present as I said, I'm not studying a koryu art nor am I training in a JSA of any sort. We just have a lot of sword in our cirriculum and with our class at least, we get a lot of the finer points of swordsmanship with more focus on technique and skill as opposed to hack and slash attacks for the sake of swinging a sword. JSA are something I'm interested in down the track though so would like to get a good base before moving in.

I can’t see any difference.

Are you using it strictly for iai? Solo and partner practice? Light to no contact? How quickly are you getting an iaito?

Personally stay away from red oak. Go with white oak or what I prefer, hickory. My hickory bokken is 12 years old, used weekly for heavy jodo practice, NP’s.

I agree with Suk, go to a hardware store and pick up a length of black plastic pipe, it’ll work just as well.

And I never miss an opportunity to flog my sensei’s store….. [URL]http://sdksupplies.com/[/URL]

I wouldn't be doing any partner kata (at least not with any sort of contact) using a blade of any kind. The main thing I'm looking for is working on my grip, draw, posture and control during cuts, retrieval etc. In terms of how quickly, I'm thinking of lodging my application for a licence in the next month or so once I've paid up some bills and put money aside. Then that takes between 8 - 12 weeks to go through from what I've been told, then saving to buy a decent sword so about 6 - 8 months down the track?

Red oak was the very first bokken I got, used it for 2 and a half years, worked a treat and then it got stolen along with all my other weapons So went out and bought white oak stuff to use in class. I think I'm just greedy though and want to get the good quality stuff and keept what I have now as spares.

Agreed.

IF you are sticking around, buy an iaito ASAP. A good one, from a good supplier. Its up to your sensei of couse, but note I said iaito, and not a shinken....

Yup, no chance I'd get a shinken in the near future. I KNOW I'll end up stabbing myself or slicing off something I'll regret.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Oh and the tachikaze is pretty cool

 

[Ken Morgan]

The main thing I'm looking for is working on my grip, draw, posture and control during cuts, retrieval etc.

.....you realize that you will ALWAYS be working on this....right?

That's the point of iaido.....

 

[Supra Vijai]

.....you realize that you will ALWAYS be working on this....right?

That's the point of iaido.....

Haha so I hear sir! The only difference in my mind though is that while you are striving for perfection, I'm trying to figure out how to get the sword out of the saya without "sticking" and that during noto, the sharp pointy bit goes back into the saya and not my palm lol. Given that I'm a while away from an Iaito though (for a range of reasons), I'm hoping to get some sort of practice using a good bokken and saya.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Supra,

The main differences between the "Standard" and "Deluxe" bokken from Bokkenshop are a wider selection of woods and finishes, a slight difference in the design (the aforementioned spine), and a high degree of quality control over the wood selection.

I'll bring in a range of items for you to see tonight, including an Iaito, Mogito, Standard bokken, Deluxe bokken, Deluxe with resin saya, and a plastic saya, just so you can see what you're asking about. Yes, I've got a lot of toys....

 

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks for bringing those in to class! Really made a huge difference feeling the different weights and balances of each. Will take your advice on board of course with regards to making any purchases and check with you for any updates etc.