Sparring rules: "through vs pull back"

[matrim13]

Quick question, I haven't seen this specific topic addressed in historic threads. In practice at your dojos or in tournaments, what is the general rule you encounter in sparring regarding "pull back" vs "through" punches & kicks? As an example, would a hook kick that is executed in full (across the face) be allowed, or would the hook kick be required to pull back (heel to side of head, then pulled back to fighting stance)? Same question with a punch or any other technique.

At my dojo and in the tournament circuit we participate in, there isn't a distinction made about this. As a result, there tends to be heavier contact than I am used to in other rulesets. For the longest time I was thinking about this in terms of "people don't have control here" or "wow there's a lot more contact allowed." Now it's occurred to me that the heart of the issue is that there is no distinction made in between how techniques are executed. The official rules call for "touch" to score a point. So my experience is that requiring "touch" while not also requiring "pull back" tends to yield a lot harder knocks.

So my question, is the above common in your experience? Uncommon? Generally accepted, an outlier, etc? Would love to hear feedback. I'm really looking for a baseline to set my own experience against.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Didn't participate in tournaments, but in the ken/mpo dojos I trained, pretty much universal that we follow through with our techniques. We still need to control the power that was put in them, but there wasn't really any times where as soon as I feel contact, I would change my technique to pull away, nor was I taught to do that. Sounds like a bad habit to get into

 

[Buka]

We learned to punch and kick with control. And with that, you learn to follow through - every bit as much as just touch. To us, that’s what control means in our punching and kicking development. We start that from day one in sparring. In my opinion, you learn to develop power easier if you learn control rather than just trying to throw as hard as you can.

Same thing goes for the ability to lightly hit.

It’s relatively easy. The difficult part is doing it at speed.

As for hook kicks specifically,
we train with the heel as the striking point as well as the slap bottom of the foot.

 

[isshinryuronin]

We learned to punch and kick with control. And with that, you learn to follow through - every bit as much as just touch. To us, that’s what control means in our punching and kicking development. We start that from day one in sparring. In my opinion, you learn to develop power easier if you learn control rather than just trying to throw as hard as you can.

Same thing goes for the ability to lightly hit.

It’s relatively easy. The difficult part is doing it at speed.

As for hook kicks specifically,
we train with the heel as the striking point as well as the slap bottom of the foot.

Control was part of karate training giving the skill to stop short, kiss, or penetrate, depending on the situation. I think this is what you were saying. With all the pads and rules nowadays, this may be a lost art.

Re: spinning heel hook, one of our students (a sparring partner for Ken Norton) got his jaw broke by one. They are hard to control so using the sole of the foot (slap) is preferable in dojo sparring, especially going to the head.

I had a returning soldier from Viet Nam come into the dojo wanting to spar so I took him on. I made the mistake of sparring "nice" (one of my personality flaws). He blasted a kick to my groin that bent me over and hurt me good. I replied with a spinning heel hook to the ribs (with the control button set to penetrate) and dropped him. Interestingly, it was a move I very rarely used but he put me in survival mode and instinct took over.

While it took me a few days to recover, I learned that I could get hurt and still fight on. Gave me confidence in my art and survivability.

 

[Buka]

Control was part of karate training giving the skill to stop short, kiss, or penetrate, depending on the situation. I think this is what you were saying. With all the pads and rules nowadays, this may be a lost art.

Re: spinning heel hook, one of our students (a sparring partner for Ken Norton) got his jaw broke by one. They are hard to control so using the sole of the foot (slap) is preferable in dojo sparring, especially going to the head.

I had a returning soldier from Viet Nam come into the dojo wanting to spar so I took him on. I made the mistake of sparring "nice" (one of my personality flaws). He blasted a kick to my groin that bent me over and hurt me good. I replied with a spinning heel hook to the ribs (with the control button set to penetrate) and dropped him. Interestingly, it was a move I very rarely used but he put me in survival mode and instinct took over.

While it took me a few days to recover, I learned that I could get hurt and still fight on. Gave me confidence in my art and survivability.

I’ve run into that returning soldier thing several times. And they were just coming out of serving, not from war. Never could figure that out.

That was a nice kick to teach him a lesson with.

All of the students in my school only threw spin hooks with the sole. It was their choice. But I’m sure they would have done the exact same thing as you did. And they would have been applauded.

 

[matrim13]

Control was part of karate training giving the skill to stop short, kiss, or penetrate, depending on the situation. I think this is what you were saying. With all the pads and rules nowadays, this may be a lost art.

This is what I'm trying to describe, and I think you did it better.

Using these terms, do you typically (and maybe not you if you are very advanced, but as a general rule) spar with "stop short" "kiss" or "penetrate" as a contact rule in the dojo and in tournaments?

I'd equate "kiss" with "pull back" and "penetrate" with "follow through" but again I like your terminology better for this convo.

 

[Gyakuto]

We were trained to focus a punch a few centimetres in before the target (‘sundome’ - a ‘sun’ being about 2.5cm and ‘dome’ meaning ‘to stop’). The same for front, side and roundhouse kicks. Reverse and spinning kicks were more problematic so the use of the sole of the foot was recommended and inevitably, some contact was made.

 

[Fungus]

In kyokushin there are different levels for competition, full-contact is the toughest. Here maxium force, follow through kicks to the head are allowed. Basically anything except elbows and strikes to the head, no groin kicks and no attackes to the back/spine or throat. But this is normally reserved for competition.

In semi-contact, it's the same except reduced power to the head, but full power to body - follow through kicks are not allowed. So in semi-contact you are not suppsed to known your opponent out with a head kick. But you can still break ribs if you want.

In our normal regular sparring, the level of contact is agreed with your opponent. If two high ranks want to, they can go as hard as they want and feel comfortable with, it's decided just before starting. If you plan to enter full contact tournaments you obviously need to train also with contact, to learn to block full contact kicks. Blocking a "touch" is something very different that blocking a full power kick. So if you train to block them with one hand, and suddenly there is a power kick, you may be surpised. But the idea in our club is to not head knock someone in weekly sparrings, they they may not show up next week. So head kicks can hit but with low power.

If you aiming skills is poor you can do a follow through with low power as well, if you don't add so much snap power, but basically just "push" less. I do this friendly version often. Even if you aim well, the opponent may were well MOVE before impact.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is what I'm trying to describe, and I think you did it better.

Using these terms, do you typically (and maybe not you if you are very advanced, but as a general rule) spar with "stop short" "kiss" or "penetrate" as a contact rule in the dojo and in tournaments?

I'd equate "kiss" with "pull back" and "penetrate" with "follow through" but again I like your terminology better for this convo.

I misunderstood initially then, I think. Your hook kick example confused me. Yes, we would normally "kiss" the opponent, but that is different than stopping short, and different than changing the form of your kick once you make contact. With some kicks, it's tougher to do this while keeping form then others, for sure.

 

[Fungus]

As far as I understand and we are taught, set aside on contact level, "pulling back" vs "follow thtough" is to minimize getting trapped and also to be ready to attack again. Ie. the faster your limb is reset, it can attack again, but not sooner.

Even with pullback, you can hit hard (=way too hard, if point-touch is the ruleset)

 

[Fungus]

We get to do metronome exercise on pads, where you are punching at a high rate I think ~3Hz or so for a few minutes. And here you feel that pulling the hand back asap makes the reloading faster and easier. When you get tired one usually leave the fist out there longer.

 

[matrim13]

Right, pulling/snapping back regardless of the force used is prudent but different than what I'm trying to ask. Here is a visual example of what I am describing (relevant example is at 1:07):

 

[Fungus]

Here is a visual example of what I am describing (relevant example is at 1:07):

It seems to me those rules makes sense for any point-based competition system, and sparring associated to those styles as the point then is not to deliver pain or damage?

In kyokushin, disabilitating the opponent or bringing hime down in pain is the normal way to get a "point". A perfectly executed technique, that is too weak to affect the opponent gives no point in kyokushin.

I don't know alot about american kempo, does it come both in full contact versions and point-karate versions?

 

[drop bear]

If you heel kick me hard in the head. We are on for reals.

You can work out how to manage that yourself.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Using these terms, do you typically (and maybe not you if you are very advanced, but as a general rule) spar with "stop short" "kiss" or "penetrate" as a contact rule in the dojo and in tournaments?

Stop short -> kiss to the head and groin. Kiss -> moderate penetration to the body (slight penetration in the dojo). These were the days before gloves and pads.

point-based competition system, and sparring associated to those styles as the point then is not to deliver pain or damage?

The point was not to deliver pain or damage, but to show it could have delivered damage if the attacker had wished to do so. Consider a punch to the head stopping 1 inch away with the punching arm extended 85%. This would be a point since if the attacker had fully extended, a solid hit would have resulted (he would still have to be balanced). Now if the arm was fully extended and still an inch away the attack would have had no chance of landing a solid hit and so no point would be awarded. This is how the system was originally set up.

 

[Buka]

Right, pulling/snapping back regardless of the force used is prudent but different than what I'm trying to ask. Here is a visual example of what I am describing (relevant example is at 1:07):

I am, and always have been, focused on the development and safety of students in Martial Arts. But I think we should caution the Martial Arts community about going too far in either direction. “Fighting and fight training” are contact sports/life styles.

If you take away too much contact you change Martial Arts to something else. Just as there are Boxercising Gyms where you train like you think a boxer trains, I suppose Karatetsizing Gyms are coming next.

I warn all you BJJ lovers, I’m going to open a no touching BJJ gym where you sit on the floor and yell the names of BJJ techniques at each other. And pronunciation be damned.

 

[drop bear]

I am, and always have been, focused on the development and safety of students in Martial Arts. But I think we should caution the Martial Arts community about going too far in either direction. “Fighting and fight training” are contact sports/life styles.

If you take away too much contact you change Martial Arts to something else. Just as there are Boxercising Gyms where you train like you think a boxer trains, I suppose Karatetsizing Gyms are coming next.

I warn all you BJJ lovers, I’m going to open a no touching BJJ gym where you sit on the floor and yell the names of BJJ techniques at each other. And pronunciation be damned.

The Marchardos already did it.

Rigan Machado Explains His Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is getting more and more popular among the Hollywood A list celebrities. Famous people that train or have trained in BJJ include Ashton Kutcher, Prince Jackson (son of Michael Jackson), Marlon Wayans, Freddie Prinze Jr, Shaquille O’neal, Paul Walker, Scott Caan, Vince Vaughn...

www.bjjee.com

 

[Buka]

The Marchardos already did it.

Rigan Machado Explains His Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is getting more and more popular among the Hollywood A list celebrities. Famous people that train or have trained in BJJ include Ashton Kutcher, Prince Jackson (son of Michael Jackson), Marlon Wayans, Freddie Prinze Jr, Shaquille O’neal, Paul Walker, Scott Caan, Vince Vaughn...

www.bjjee.com

That was a really good article.

 

[drop bear]

That was a really good article.

Yeah. Exept that celebrity's have discovered they can just do normal jujitsu and still celebrity.

 

[Buka]

Yeah. Exept that celebrity's have discovered they can just do normal jujitsu and still celebrity.

I’m a big fan of Tom Hardy. I didn’t know he trained in Jits. That just makes me enjoy his performances even more.

I’m also a big fan of actor Ed O’ Neill. He’s a great MA story in my opinion.