Sorim Jang Kwon

[Muwubu16858]

I finally convinced my teacher to be video taped doing all the Tang Soo Do forms and some Karate Do forms. For those who dont know, my teacher is Dan Bon 1651 in the Moo Duk Kwan. Among the forms he will perform, he will be including Dam Toi(Tan Tui), Sorim Jang Kwon and the even rarer Chinese version of Naihanji, taught to him by Oh Sae Joon (No. 26) after returning from meeting with Mas Oyama in Japan in the mid to late 1960's. Now, sadly, these videos will not be available to the general public. These are only reference tapes for TSD YMCA members only. However, I have decided that I will make available the Sorim Jang Kwon Hyung available to any student of Tang Soo Do on Martial Talk who is interested, under certain restrictions. These videos will begin to be taped in January and February 2010, and should be completed by March or April. Anyone interested in Sorim Jang Kwon should PM me, and I will go over the details.

 

[JWLuiza]

Spreading the word:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rFdPKK-dZ4&feature=player_embedded

 

[Gi1]

I've just googled it and it looks like a nice form. What is it's history? Does anyone know?

 

[Makalakumu]

Looks like we are seeing where many of the chil sung movements are coming from. A Chinese version of Naihanchi? I've never heard of that and many of the Okinawan karateka I know have been pretty explicit. Naihanchi is Ryukyuan. I'd love to see it and know its history.

 

[dancingalone]

I've just googled it and it looks like a nice form. What is it's history? Does anyone know?

Looks like a basic chang quan form to me. This is beginner material to be honest.

 

[Gi1]

Looks like a basic chang quan form to me. This is beginner material to be honest.

sorry to waste your time with menial matters but I'm proud to be a beginner and have been for the past 28 years.

 

[dancingalone]

sorry to waste your time with menial matters but I'm proud to be a beginner and have been for the past 28 years.

Instead of taking insult where none was intended, just take my post at its face value. It's true enough that this form is beginner level material. Do you disagree?

I realize the Chinese connection is somewhat of a holy grail for TSD people. It still doesn't change the fact that the youtube video in this thread is a form (relatively modern-looking in my opinion) taught to people in their first year of study. It's also quite short and 'easy' to perform.

 

[cdunn]

One would hope that a form named 'Shaolin Chang Quan' should look like a chang quan form. One would further expect that with only one chang quan form on the syllabus, it would be relatively simple.

I wonder how the Tae Guek Kwon that KJN Hwang practiced built on this.

 

[Makalakumu]

The Sorim Jang Kwan looks for the Chinese connection in the wrong place, IMO. Most TSD traces back to China through Okinawa. Soo Bahk Do, an offshoot of TSD, has more relation to this material through it's Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung.

 

[dancingalone]

One would hope that a form named 'Shaolin Chang Quan' should look like a chang quan form. One would further expect that with only one chang quan form on the syllabus, it would be relatively simple.

I wonder how the Tae Guek Kwon that KJN Hwang practiced built on this.

Well, that's where the puzzlement comes in for me. I don't see anything in that youtube video that would be of interest to a TSDist looking to delve into the finer points of his own art. Whatever Chinese forms Mr. Hwang Kee may have practiced, I can't look at that YT video and take seriously the notion that this particular form would provide any real insight into Mr. Hwang Kee's personal expression of martial arts.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, that's where the puzzlement comes in for me. I don't see anything in that youtube video that would be of interest to a TSDist looking to delve into the finer points of his own art. Whatever Chinese forms Mr. Hwang Kee may have practiced, I can't look at that YT video and take seriously the notion that this particular form would provide any real insight into Mr. Hwang Kee's personal expression of martial arts.

When HK worked for the railroad, reputedly studied with a Chinese Martial Arts master for a year and a half. Years later, HK originally named his art Hwa Soo Do and was intent teaching the Chinese material. At this same time, HK had been training with Lee Won Kuk, a nidan in Shotokan, for about a year in a half. LWK advised HK to change the name of his art to Tang Soo Do so that he would attract more students. HK did so and then began to construct a network of dojangs across Korea via the railroad. The material that was taught in these Railroad Dojangs was Shotokan. Years later, upon discovering some books on Chinese Martial arts, HK revived his interest in CMA and began to incorporate more and more material into TSD. An entire mythology arose from this where all Japanese influence was expunged and it was claimed that the whole art came from China. That is the origin the "Chinese Connection" with Tang Soo Do. It's part fabrication and part reality. The careful research I did in my book, provides sources for all this material.

 

[Muwubu16858]

I was able to show my teacher this form today, to which he informed me that this was not the form used in the moo duk kwan.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

My Kwan Jang Nim taught Moo Duk Kwan to the ROK army 9th division in the early 1950's through the mid-late 1950's, then the U.S. Army, 8th division during the early 1960's. I am assuming it was during this period that he either 1). left Hwang Kee with the others as part of MDK TKD or 2). left Hwang Kee because he was training the military.

Either way, it appears he left Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan (Soo Bahk Do) before Hwang Kee began to integrate his Chinese MA influences into the art. We practice the Japanese rooted techniques and hyungs: kee cho hyungs, pyong ahn hyungs, bassai, naihanchi hyungs, jin do hyung, and kang song kun hyung. During the early 1980's he through out the sip soo, ro hai, yun bi, sei san, and jion hyungs. He said that there wree too many forms, and we needed to concentrate on perfecting the fewer more important forms.

So, IMO, depending on where the various instructors left Hwang Kee during his evolution of the Moo Duk Kwan, it would dictate what styles were influencing it. We emphasize the hard/direct aspect of Karate, and de-emphasize the soft/circular aspect of the Chinese arts.

Personally, it is what it is, and I don't particularly care what the name of the art is, I am passionate about what I know and what I have learned. I do not understand the techniques later introduced by Hwang Kee, as we do not learn/teach these techniques. They look more like "fluff" than substance, but again it is probably because I do not understand the circular motions intent.

 

[JWLuiza]

I was able to show my teacher this form today, to which he informed me that this was not the form used in the moo duk kwan.

From warrior-scholar, the person who presented this says this would be the form that Hwang Ki would've received and it might have been changed slightly to fit in with the TSD curriculum. Thanks for showing it around. Have you got a chance to get a record of your instructor's version?

 

[Muwubu16858]

Not yet, as I've been preparing to open my TSD school out of my church in CT for the last few months, so all production with my teacher is on hold.

 

[Don Daly]

SaBomNim Sabia,

I have learned TSDMDK in Wyoming ('72-'76 & '82-'97) from instructors who are no longer a part of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Association. I have been trying to find the true So Rim Jang Kwon of TSD. Do you know where I could find a complete description, illustrations or video of this hyung?
Thank you for your assistance.

Don Daly
Sah Dan

 

[BTrent]

So Rim Jang Kwon was a requirement for Chil Dan in the World Tang Soo Do Association. My black belt manual, which I received in 1995, lists this form. A new and updated manual does not list this form any longer, but it has been replaced by Sae Jang Kwon.

The word directly from the senior masters is that Jae Chul Shin is completing a 6th and final book which is to detail the upper level forms. His 4th Book detailed the forms needed for Sa Dan, so this new book may detail Sae Jang Kwon. I've never seen it, but I am curious as to whether So Rim Jang Kwon influenced Sae Jang Kwon. I'd like to ask the senior masters about So Rim to see if any still do it.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I'm not sure if this is Sorim Jang Kwon, but Master Pistella (who's here on MT) learned Jang Kwon from GM Joon Pyo CHOI (Columbus, OH).

 

[SahBumNimRush]

There is also a 2 man form called Jang Kwon.

Here are students under Kang Rhee performing the form:

And here is Kim Soo performing the form:

 

[Don Daly]

For my interpretation of So Rim Jang Kwon Hyung, see the topic:
[h=2]Re: TaeKuekKwon & SoRimJangKwon Hyungs [/h]Much more information on So Rim Jang Kwon is found there and I have just added pages from my interpretation from a previous English translation.

Don Daly