Something TMA may have forgotten...

[Makalakumu]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-27128795001594833&q=Judo

So, this is how the old timers got so good...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes most unfortunately it is forgotten by most and yes they trained hard.

And this is coming from a TMA/CMA guy.

 

[Makalakumu]

I really like the emphasis on physical training for their bodies. Although, the head stand thing kind of creeped me out.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I really like the emphasis on physical training for their bodies. Although, the head stand thing kind of creeped me out.

It is how MA use to train in the old days, although I never did the headstand stuff and never had a class go past 100 sit-ups. And to be honest the only people that on average come close to that level of training anymore are MMA and Sanshou people.

The problem is now, from what I have seen is that if you train people that hard you have no students.

I have used this example before. My first CMA Sifu taught me a Chen form and decided to train like he would train people in China. And it was very hard training (not 600 to 1000 push ups hard but hard). The class started with 40 people and only 6 of us finished the form. He never taught that form again, there was no money in it and his business was his school. Moat unfortunately things went downhill fast at his school after that, but that's another story.

 

[zDom]

That video is awesome.

I'm jealous though: MY instructor never lets us take off our dobok tops when doing judo pushups

 

[Makalakumu]

And to be honest the only people that on average come close to that level of training anymore are MMA and Sanshou people.

And this is why I think it should come as no surprise as to who is winning in competition.

It's really interesting to see pics of old karate masters...many have some sort of weight training equipment in the background, as well as other equipment that is meant to make the body strong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And this is why I think it should come as no surprise as to who is winning in competition.

It's really interesting to see pics of old karate masters...many have some sort of weight training equipment in the background, as well as other equipment that is meant to make the body strong.

True.

Also there are old ways of training, see stance training (to name 1), that are now looked down on and called a waste of time.

There are a few that still train that way but sadly very few these days.

I can remember my TDK teacher making us run 50 to 100 laps around the school, I do not train TDK any longer and haven’t in 20 years so I do not know if this still goes on, but I certainly have not seen it in a CMA school lately, with 1 exception n my area, the Wing Chun school still train pretty hard. I am positive there are others too, just not in my corner of the country.

 

[Ping898]

Wow....that was impressive. It just to me highlighted some of the stark differences between what MA used to be or is in Japan and what you find here in the US, where even if you have a great instructor, you rarely get that kind of push to your physical limits, many times training a champion doesn't even cross instructors minds...

 

[Floating Egg]

Am I the only one that's not impressed? Outside of the headstand, I don't see anything there that isn't in a typical routine.

 

[Andrew Green]

True.

Also there are old ways of training, see stance training (to name 1), that are now looked down on and called a waste of time.

There are a few that still train that way but sadly very few these days.

What's the reason though?

Was it they saw something in certain methods that we don't? Or was it simply making the best of what they had to work with?

Those old, small, crowded gyms certainly did not have access to a modern fitness facility. Had they had all the equipment then they we can have access to now, would the old masters have trained people differently?

Sports science has come a long way in the past 50 or so years, Olympic records from not too long ago look like a High school track meets scores next to current records in some sports.

Martial artists I think sometimes forget this. There is the stuff that is relevant to the system, and the stuff that isn't. 80 years ago people still swam the same way more or less, but the training methods and strength training that backs that stroke have been greatly improved.

Martial arts is the same, you can be true to your style AND take the advances in sports sciences to push your abilities in that art to a higher level then was possible 50 years ago in Okinawa / Korea / Japan or wherever.

 

[shesulsa]

What's the reason though?

Was it they saw something in certain methods that we don't? Or was it simply making the best of what they had to work with?

There is a good deal of mental training in standing in a horse stance for 15 minutes without falling ... 30 minutes ... on pilons 20 feet in the air with a spear under your butt (no one does this anymore). When your muscles have fatigued, have received a load of lactic acid, are completely done, then what have you left?

Traditional training is not just about age-old traditions that don't make sense anymore. There are unteachable lessons in that training.

If you think you can learn those lessons with machines at 24 hour fitness, then go for it. Me ... I'll keep learning more about what my mind can make my body do.

 

[Hand Sword]

Am I the only one that's not impressed? Outside of the headstand, I don't see anything there that isn't in a typical routine.

If you find it typical and unimpressive, then, you should consider yourself very lucky, and keep at it!

Unfortunatelly

, that way of doing things and more has seemed to have been phased out through the years, on the big scale. Very sad!

 

[Andrew Green]

There is a good deal of mental training in standing in a horse stance for 15 minutes without falling ... 30 minutes ... on pilons 20 feet in the air with a spear under your butt (no one does this anymore). When your muscles have fatigued, have received a load of lactic acid, are completely done, then what have you left?

Traditional training is not just about age-old traditions that don't make sense anymore. There are unteachable lessons in that training.

If you think you can learn those lessons with machines at 24 hour fitness, then go for it. Me ... I'll keep learning more about what my mind can make my body do.

If it turns to mental training then I think it becomes purely individual, there is also a great deal of mental fortitude in weight training. Some methods will work for some, other methods for others. Perhaps everyone should go through Basic infantry training, thats another way to push mental fortitude, which IMO, is harder then learning to hold a horse stance?

That said, I got my doubts about force stance on pillars over a spear ever being done outside of movies and perhaps people with questionable sanity

 

[shesulsa]

If it turns to mental training then I think it becomes purely individual, there is also a great deal of mental fortitude in weight training. Some methods will work for some, other methods for others. Perhaps everyone should go through Basic infantry training, thats another way to push mental fortitude, which IMO, is harder then learning to hold a horse stance?

Of course it is.

That said, I got my doubts about force stance on pillars over a spear ever being done outside of movies and perhaps people with questionable sanity

Well ... we'll never know, will we? There are LOTS of stories of what was done in old-style training.

But the bottom line is ... trashing "TMA" training because of the limited amount of information one can reasonably gather and based on the assumptions of a handful of people who feel they can point fingers based on their experience and say, "that doesn't work" is an empty argument.

I rather think that if someone can't get something out of traditional martial arts training that martial arts isn't really for them and they're not learning the right lessons. But then again, that's ... my ... experience.

I will not sit here and trash MMA training or other modern training methods because I haven't trained hard in a while and saying such a thing would be two things coming from me: hypocritical and unexperienced, since I have not experienced a lot of MMA style training.

But the whole "My mucky-muck is better than your mucky-muck because ..." argument is misguided, misinformed and tired.

 

[zDom]

Am I the only one that's not impressed? Outside of the headstand, I don't see anything there that isn't in a typical routine.

Heck yes, I'm impressed.

You guys are doing 600 judo pushups *per class* and sometimes 1,000?

I salute you. :asian:

Our typical routine has 500 - 800 total calisthenics, but that is spread out between things like pushups, situps, leg lifts and squats.

I've done 300-400 total pushups in a class but broken into sets, over 500 situps in a row during another, and once did over 800 squats in 25 minutes, but to me 600 judo pushups *every* class is impressive.

The headstand in that video are also hardcore, IMO. We've done some similar neck exercises, but we didn't have someone else holding our feet so our entire weight was on the head like that.

I was also impressed with the squats while holding someone in fireman's carry.

There aren't many schools that I know of training that hard. I know some Judo schools still do.

Bong Yul Shin, a Korean Judo great-grandmaster, has led us through workouts at conventions with several thousand calisthenics, but only he was able to do them all. I will never forget those workouts.

Floating Egg or anybody still pushing that hard, I'd love to hear what exercises you are doing.

 

[pstarr]

Thus, the article about the horse stance...the ma.

Yes, it isn't just what you train - it's also how you train it.

 

[Floating Egg]

Heck yes, I'm impressed.

You guys are doing 600 judo pushups *per class* and sometimes 1,000?

For a while I was pulled into the whole Matt Furey Combat Conditioning thing and I was doing a lot of Hindu pushups, Hindu squats, bridging, handstand pushups, and gymnastics exercises like the Planche.

Floating Egg or anybody still pushing that hard, I'd love to hear what exercises you are doing.

I'm completely out of that game because once you're able to do a few hundred pushups in one set, the activity becomes extraordinarily boring and unproductive. I also hurt my shoulder performing handstand pushups, and after taking a long break away from high volume calisthenics, I decided to reassess my routine.

While I used to be against weight lifting before, I now perform compound exercises in conjunction with Bas Rutten's Mixed Martial Art Workout, and I make sure that I don't overtrain. I still perform pushups, but I treat them like any other weight bearing exercise.

 

[Makalakumu]

Martial arts is the same, you can be true to your style AND take the advances in sports sciences to push your abilities in that art to a higher level then was possible 50 years ago in Okinawa / Korea / Japan or wherever.

This is a truism if I ever heard one. There is no reason to be anachronistic other then for aesthetics, especially if modernized approaches work better. The key, is hard hard work.

You can't get good without it. There are no secret techniques in MA other then the good old fashioned blood, sweat, and tears.

Log in to youtube and check out Rich Franklin's workout. Is he working any less hard then these guys? Absolutely not.

You can work the traditional angle and gain the results and a good sense of cultural awareness and still get good and you can work the modern angle and get good.

What they both have in common is WORK.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What's the reason though?

Was it they saw something in certain methods that we don't? Or was it simply making the best of what they had to work with?

Those old, small, crowded gyms certainly did not have access to a modern fitness facility. Had they had all the equipment then they we can have access to now, would the old masters have trained people differently?

Sports science has come a long way in the past 50 or so years, Olympic records from not too long ago look like a High school track meets scores next to current records in some sports.

Martial artists I think sometimes forget this. There is the stuff that is relevant to the system, and the stuff that isn't. 80 years ago people still swam the same way more or less, but the training methods and strength training that backs that stroke have been greatly improved.

Martial arts is the same, you can be true to your style AND take the advances in sports sciences to push your abilities in that art to a higher level then was possible 50 years ago in Okinawa / Korea / Japan or wherever.

I agree that sports science has come a long way and I also agree that some of the old ways of training may not be technically as good for muscle development as newer ways. But there was more to it than just getting physically stronger, there is an internal side to this as well.

And there are schools in China, Japan and America that would have access to modern equipment, but they still don't use it and they are producing some pretty amazing Martial artists.

I did give up on old ways of training at one time, went out and bought a total gym and a bow flex (the expense did not thrill my wife by the way), read a lot on training with these and I came to the conclusion, at least for me that for strength training I am better off with free weight and for Martial Arts training I am better off with the old ways I was originally taught. However I have said before I have been called a Dinosaur for that switch. But for me they work better.

Thus, the article about the horse stance...the ma.



Yes, it isn't just what you train - it's also how you train it.

What he said

 

[zDom]

This is a truism if I ever heard one. There is no reason to be anachronistic other then for aesthetics, especially if modernized approaches work better. The key, is hard hard work.

You can't get good without it. There are no secret techniques in MA other then the good old fashioned blood, sweat, and tears.

Log in to youtube and check out Rich Franklin's workout. Is he working any less hard then these guys? Absolutely not.

You can work the traditional angle and gain the results and a good sense of cultural awareness and still get good and you can work the modern angle and get good.

What they both have in common is WORK.

I agree -- but what may be different is what kind of work.

High weight, low repetitions builds muscular strength by building more muscle fibers.

Low weight (i.e. body weight, calisthenics) builds muscular endurance by building capillary systems. This gets more blood to the muscle fibers faster and also helps the muscle get rid of lactic acid buildup, which is usually the limiting factor due to the burn.

Low weight/high repetitions ALSO builds up aerobic endurance -- the ability to get energy from breathing + fat burning as opposed to short duration exercise which burns ATP first and then glycogen -- sugars stored in the liver and muscles.

Some prefer to use free weights or machines to do low-weight high repetition exercise and then do some running for the aerobic component.

Personally, I *like* the "old school" method of cranking out lots of calisthenics, getting it all at the dojang. It definately isn't for everybody. But it DOES have some "inner" benefits.

I'd still like to hear some specifics, especially on those out there still doing marathon calisthenic workouts.

BTW, it isn't ALWAYS calisthenics. Sometimes we do 1,000 kicks, for example, or several hundred "fits" (throwing practice where you lift them up and set them back down, which is more work than a throw).