So you always wanted to be a Samurai
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
- Start date
Cool.
But you know what's funny? You look at this armor and you can't help but think... total protection... yet Samurai's still got killed in those. So the armor still didn't make one invincible. Then again Mideval European armor didn't help out much either.
But you know what's funny? You look at this armor and you can't help but think... total protection... yet Samurai's still got killed in those. So the armor still didn't make one invincible. Then again Mideval European armor didn't help out much either.
INDYFIGHTER
Purple Belt
I don't see how you could fight wearing all that.
Ah, the good old 'armour effectiveness' topic whispers its way to the surface once more 
.
Not being critical, gents, in case you misinterpret my first sentence, it's just a pet topic of mine and I like it when anything suggests another chance to discuss it :tup:.
I can't speak in as well-read a fashion to Eastern armour as I can to Western but for European plate-style suits, as worn by the nobility, the protection offered was very good indeed. My favourite analogy is that if you went out to battle in full harness then you were the equivalent of an MBT these days. You could be killed but your enemies had to work darned hard to achieve that.
The balancing act between weapon and armour has always gone on and, if you could afford it, armour has generally been the winner, with weapon development playing catch up (after all, you don't need a new weapon to defeat protection that's not evolved yet).
As to the Samurai armour, I'd love the chance to wear some and see how it felt and moved but I'm guessing that, practicalities being what they are, full armour would be no more encumbering to activity than the equivalent European suits (which allow a more or less full range of movement).
.Not being critical, gents, in case you misinterpret my first sentence, it's just a pet topic of mine and I like it when anything suggests another chance to discuss it :tup:.
I can't speak in as well-read a fashion to Eastern armour as I can to Western but for European plate-style suits, as worn by the nobility, the protection offered was very good indeed. My favourite analogy is that if you went out to battle in full harness then you were the equivalent of an MBT these days. You could be killed but your enemies had to work darned hard to achieve that.
The balancing act between weapon and armour has always gone on and, if you could afford it, armour has generally been the winner, with weapon development playing catch up (after all, you don't need a new weapon to defeat protection that's not evolved yet).
As to the Samurai armour, I'd love the chance to wear some and see how it felt and moved but I'm guessing that, practicalities being what they are, full armour would be no more encumbering to activity than the equivalent European suits (which allow a more or less full range of movement).
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
- Thread Starter
- #6
I am no expert on either European armor or Japanese Armor. The only thing I know is that the Japanese armor is not made of steel. I believe it is leather, rope and bamboo.
Oh and I also know a friend of mine has one of these sitting in his living room http://www.toraba.com/gusoku-0702-0795.htm
Oh and I also know a friend of mine has one of these sitting in his living room http://www.toraba.com/gusoku-0702-0795.htm
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Generally Japanese armour is a composite manufacture. The base is a form called lamellar in which small pieces of metal are laced together to form strips. The strips are then laced together in an over-lapping fashion to produce the larger pieces of armour. The lamellar strips were usually lacquered to protect them from the weather. In some of the more elaborate suits, like those illustrated, the breast piece was often covered with a sheet of lacquered leather with patterns and designs painted on it. Helmets were similarly constructed but the strips were riveted together.
To the samurai, the appearance of the armour was as important as it functionality, as a result there are many patterns and colours in the silk lacing used to tie the armour together.
That's a common misconception, my friend. Nothing to be ashamed of or embarassed about ... it's the opinion I held myself until I researched the subject more.
Japanese 'samurai' armour is made of iron or steel plates laced together. It worked well enough to stop the slugs fired by the guns of the time from fatally injuring the combatants in some cirumstances. In fact certain accounts suggest that the quality of an armourers work was measured by how well it resisted gunfire.
Japanese 'samurai' armour is made of iron or steel plates laced together. It worked well enough to stop the slugs fired by the guns of the time from fatally injuring the combatants in some cirumstances. In fact certain accounts suggest that the quality of an armourers work was measured by how well it resisted gunfire.
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Thats why arts like Kukishinden-ryu have some strange stances and movements, to facilitate maintaining balance and manuverability in armor like that... and attacks that seem weird, which were designed to, for example slip weapons up the breastplates and under the neck guard and faceplate of the armor. I've had some exposure to fighting in/against armor, but its not somthing we ever focus on in my group.
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Actually, it really depends on what TYPE of armor you are talking about. There wasnt ONE type of "Samurai Armor" it varied quite a bit. Everything from small metal plates linked with chainmail over leather all the way up to breastplates of a design like western armor. Even the helmets ranged from steel Jingasa style to the full samurai helmet you are used to seeing in pictures, all the way to smaller metal headbands...
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
There is some very cool mail that comes from Japan. One piece cuirass developed in Japan after their contact with Europeans,and a very good job they did of it too. There is armour from before that time that looks like one piece construction but is really just lamellar covered in leather and lacquered to look hard. Jingasa and full kabuto are constructed the same way, those weird-looking metal headbands are really kinda funky. What a way to go into battle - fully protected by half a skullcap of thin metal!
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
What I find interesting is to examine the sword arts we see today relative to the armour that they were originally designed to cope with. Weak points in the armour were the inside of the wrist, armpit, and neck (there are others). When you see a person skilled in kenjustu demonstrating his art, these are where the attacks are directed. However, when you watch a kendo competition, the attacks are all aimed at the heaviest armour, the chest, the outside of the wrist and the head. It is interesting to see this evolution.
I do believe you are correct. In fact they had a show recently about that on the History channel.
Shinden Fudo Ryu has a lot of that too. That is why efficiency of movement has been so important throughout Budo Taijutsu, because as it was, in armor, unnecessary movement just wears you out quicker, and on the battlefield today or of old, you don't want to be the first one to tire out in CQB.
The really cool part, is that all those principles of using weapons and armor, works well in unarmed CQB.
The really cool part, is that all those principles of using weapons and armor, works well in unarmed CQB.
Or in modern ballistic armor, full SWAT regalia, etc.
True enough, Cryo.
I do believe that for the Samurai class, however, the 'classic' yoroi was by far the most common armour type.
Ashigaru, of course, would generally be clad in 'lesser' harness and, in the later periods, those samurai that had greater contact with Western influence might wear distinctly familiar armour (I do recall reading of one being very proud of his cavalry breastplate).
As for yoroi, it's structure is very complicated and does involve leather and chain as well as the laquered or leather sheathed plates I spoke of. Even the cord bindings have many variations dpending on status, region and period
.It's a fascinating subject, and as for much of Japanese history, it's sometimes difficult to winnow out the facts in the field of misconceptions and half-understood truths. Some good sources of information are the works of Steven Turnbull or Anthony Bryant for those who would like to dig deeper.
Every now and then I like to practice in my body armor, duty rig and boots. It does give a different feel to training. At some point I am going to have to break down and buy some really nice yoroi. (two sets) I train in Kendo/Gumdo training gear that can give a little bit of the same feel but not quite.
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